forme di cortesia: tu - lei - voi - loro

[ChrisM]

(Appologies in advance for my horrible Italian)

Capito nel'italiano sono due metodi parlare a un'altra persona: in modo formale (Come sta Lei), ed informale (Come stai).

Leggo libri aiutare imperare italiano. Ora, leggo 'Pinocchio' di Carlo Collodi. In questo libro, Collodi ha scritto una conversazione fra mastr'Antonio e Geppetto come questo:

- Perchè mi offendete
- Chi vi offende?
- Mi avete detto Polendina!

Ci sono solo due persone nella conversazione. Perchè ha usato 'voi' e non 'tu' o 'Lei'? Perchè il libro è vecchio? E' cosa letteraraia?

 

[Manuela]

Dear ChrisM

In Italian the "voi" is also FORMAL, however is a little outdated; usually older people use it with each other ( my grandmother still does) as a form of respect. Young people don't use it much, modern grammar calls for the "Lei" form, and that's what we use. However a lot of books, especially classics like "Pinocchio", will still have it.
I hope that helped

P.S. You are doing very well with your Italian, keep it up!

Manuela

 

[EvanC]

In Italian the "voi" is also FORMAL, however is a little outdated

Does this mean that the "voi" form is not used to address more than one person? Example:
[Voi] Andate in Italia. - meaning You [guys] are going to Italy.
And since we are on the subject of how to say "you" in Italian, is the "Loro" form used when addressing a group of people that you are on formal terms with? Or is that outdated aswell? I think that it is, but I'm not sure.
Thanks for the help!
Evan C

 

[carrickp]

In Italian class they taught us "tu" for familiar, "lei" for formal and "voi" when speaking to more than one person. I'm a musician, and I notice that in the libretti of Italian operas up well into the 20th century the "voi" form is used for formal address ("voi siete un gentiluomo") in exactly the same way that "vous" is used in French. The "lei" form is used only rarely, mainly when a lower-ranked person is addressing someone in the nobility in a very, very formal manner. Is the "voi" form used for formal address just a poetic thing, or was it common in speech in earlier times?

 

[laratri]

In Italian class they taught us "tu" for familiar, "lei" for formal and "voi" when speaking to more than one person. I'm a musician, and I notice that in the libretti of Italian operas up well into the 20th century the "voi" form is used for formal address ("voi siete un gentiluomo") in exactly the same way that "vous" is used in French. The "lei" form is used only rarely, mainly when a lower-ranked person is addressing someone in the nobility in a very, very formal manner. Is the "voi" form used for formal address just a poetic thing, or was it common in speech in earlier times?

Before the Second World War it was common in speech..
But now only Lei is used......

Lara

 

[Manuel_M]

When, many years ago, I was taught Italian, I was told that voi (besides being the second person plural) could be used to address strangers who were considred (horrible notion) one's social inferiors. I have never actually heard it being used that way. I've often wondered whether it was really at one time used in that context.

 

[V52]

Dear friends,
this is a quite interesting post! As Laratri says "Voi" is now a very very rarely used form.
But for 19th century and before we can say :
Tu : (second singular person) for familiar uses between brothers, very closed friends etc.
Lei or Ella : (third singular feminine person) for official relationships in equal rank persons , wich should be changed in "tu", after a more closed, confidential and friendly relationship. *
Voi: (second plural person) from a lower rank person to a superior rank person.
So, a son or a daughter had to speak with voi to a parent. A soldier to a lieutenant, a coutryman to a noble man... etc so it is easily found in operas , where the language must be more "elegant" .

Under Fascism Regime a "culture ministry" decided to abolish the use of "Lei" , wich was completely forbidden in any daily use! The reason was "Lei" is the use of "plutocratic people" and italian had to "rescue the language of Fathers ". Nothing more wrong of course, because the "Lei" "Ella" form was as common as "Voi" in previous times , and Romans used definitely only "Tu" in every case.

* In old movies a man and a woman use between them "lei" or "voi" form , after the first kiss... "tu" of course...
Ciao a tutti
VItt52

 

[ivanbcn]

Hi, I'm not sure, but maybe in Southern Italy (I'm thinking of Naples, for example), the polite "voi" is still quite widely used in everyday language; maybe someone from the South of Italy could tell us

ciao
ivan

 

[lisetta]

Certainly when I used to go back to southern Italy as a child in the 70s my mother used to address her elderly aunt with 'voi', but that doesn't tells us whether it's still in use today, but like Ivan I would imagine that it probably is.

ciao,
Lisetta

 

[ikester]

Certainly when I used to go back to southern Italy as a child in the 70s my mother used to address her elderly aunt with 'voi', but that doesn't tells us whether it's still in use today, but like Ivan I would imagine that it probably is.

ciao,
Lisetta

Most certainly. I hear it almost daily from clerks and waiters. When I say "grazie', the inevitable response is "a voi."

Many people here still use "voi" when speaking to someone who is a generation older, even if they've known the person for years.

ciao!

 

[carrickp]

Thanks to all for this explanation.

A follow-up question: Does one use "voi" when addressing more than one person, even politely?

 

[ikester]

Thanks to all for this explanation.

A follow-up question: Does one use "voi" when addressing more than one person, even politely?

The plural is always "voi", whether formal or informal.

ciao!

 

[DDT]

Hi, I'm not sure, but maybe in Southern Italy (I'm thinking of Naples, for example), the polite "voi" is still quite widely used in everyday language; maybe someone from the South of Italy could tell us

ciao
ivan

As ikester confirmed, the formal "voi" is still commonly used in Southern Italy

DDT

 

[Otter]

Salve tutti,

I'm here, listening to Italian Language tapes and I wonder how often and when does one use the formal Io and Lei when speaking with people one meets in Italy?

Is it necessary when speaking with hotel and restaurant people, with store owners, strangers and when one meets friends and relative of someone one already knows?

grazie.

 

[brian]

Salve tutti,

I'm here, listening to Italian Language tapes and I wonder how often and when does one use the formal Io and Lei when speaking with people one meets in Italy?

Is it necessary when speaking with hotel and restaurant people, with store owners, strangers and when one meets friends and relative of someone one already knows?

grazie.

Hi Otter,

I think you mean the formal Lei vs. the informal tu, right? Io in itself is neither formal nor informal...it just means I. The question of formality instead deals with how to address someone else, either as formal Lei or informal tu.

There have been some past discussions of these, such as this. But since this is a very important topic, you may be able to spark up some discussion here.

I think all your above scenarios would call for the formal use. Since hotel, restaurant, and store people would address their customers formally, I think it would be customary to respond back to them formally as well. As for strangers, unless the stranger is a child or if you are both teenagers, then you should use the informal; otherwise, use formal.

The informal is basically reserved for close friends, family, and maybe someone you've recently met but whom you've asked (or who has asked you) to speak informally. You can ask this by saying something like, Ci diamo del tu, d'accordo? There's a thread around here somewhere....


Brian

 

[Otter]

Hi Otter,

I think you mean the formal Lei vs. the informal tu, right? Io in itself is neither formal nor informal...it just means I. The question of formality instead deals with how to address someone else, either as formal Lei or informal tu.

Thanks, Brian No, I meant lei and Io vs. what, I don't know. (I think that rhymes). I've been listening to language tapes and they're using Lei and Io in conversation between an American and an Italian who meet as strangers.

There have been some past discussions of these, such as this. But since this is a very important topic, you may be able to spark up some discussion here.

Thanks again. I checked it out.

I think all your above scenarios would call for the formal use. Since hotel, restaurant, and store people would address their customers formally, I think it would be customary to respond back to them formally as well. As for strangers, unless the stranger is a child or if you are both teenagers, then you should use the informal; otherwise, use formal.

The informal is basically reserved for close friends, family, and maybe someone you've recently met but whom you've asked (or who has asked you) to speak informally. You can ask this by saying something like, Ci diamo del tu, d'accordo? There's a thread around here somewhere....


Brian

 

[Jana337]

Thanks, Brian No, I meant lei and Io vs. what, I don't know. (I think that rhymes). I've been listening to language tapes and they're using Lei and Io in conversation between an American and an Italian who meet as strangers.

OK but your question is a bit cryptic. What can be formal about "io"? Could you give some examples?

"Lei" can be formal - you won't address strangers with "tu".

Jana

 

[brian]

I think I see what you're asking now. In my experience, language tapes gloss over all the grammatical points in favor of brute repetition, which is fine and valuable as well. However, because of this, they often unnecessarily use the subject pronouns io and lei in every sentence. I say this is unnecessary because in Italian the verb already contains information as to its subject person. Hence, the typical use of the subject pronoun in Italy is either for emphasis or for clarification if the verb usage is ambiguous.

Language tapes often unnecessarily use the subject pronouns just because it makes it easier for the listener to comprehend what's going on, as well as force the listener to repeat them so that when they eventually speak in Italy and use the subject pronouns, there will be less of a chance of miscommunication.

So if you're asking when does one use the subject pronouns and when does he leave them out, I'd say only use them for emphasis or clarification. If you're asking about formal vs. informal, then refer to my previous post. And if I'm still not understanding you, please let me know.


Brian

 

[TrentinaNE]

In this thread, Paul indicated that Leibe should address a male that she doesn't know well with the "lei" form.

Spero che lei continui il suo viaggio senza problemi.

Alternatively, Kraus suggested here that the "tu" form

Ti stai divertendo in Sicilia e a Siracusa?

is OK in addressing what I presume is the same individual.

I'm not at all clear on when the line from tu to Lei (or vice versa) is crossed. I'd love to hear perspectives from i madrelingua.

Elisabetta

 

[kan3malato]

Ciao
A mio modo di vedere anche nel tuo secondo link Leibe dovrebbe usare del "lei".
Non credo esistano regole fisse, comunque dovresti usare del "lei" quando:
1)Non conosci la persona con cui stai parlando.

2)Se la persona è più grande di te, soprattutto se anziana(è una forma di rispetto).

3) Se pur conoscendo una persona vuoi comunque mantenere una certa distanza(non vuoi dare troppa confidenza).

Considerazioni:
In realtà però le cose non sono così definite, per esempio bambini e ragazzi anche se non si conoscono non si danno del "lei", danno del "lei" solamente a persone più grandi di loro (oggi sempre meno comunque).
Se conosci qualcuno su Internet non ho mai sentito dare del "lei", il linguaggio è molto informale. Non darei del "lei" neanche se incontrassi in un forum il Papa o il presidente della repubblica, tanto per intenderci... Ma gli darei del "lei" se li incontrassi di persona.
Per quanto riguarda l'età è un pò difficile da stabilire in linea generale vista la tua età potresti dare del "tu" a tutti i ragazzi sotto ai trent'anni.
Poi ti ripeto, dipende anche molto come ti poni tu verso gli altri, che tipo sei, quanto vuoi rimanere "distaccata" ecc ecc
Non mi viene in mente altro per ora, sicuramente qualche altro del forum potrà aiutarti meglio.

Ciao

In this thread, Paul indicated that Leibe should address a male that she doesn't know well with the "lei" form.

Alternatively, Kraus suggested here that the "tu" form

is OK in addressing what I presume is the same individual.

I'm not at all clear on when the line from tu to Lei (or vice versa) is crossed. I'd love to hear perspectives from i madrelingua.

Elisabetta

 

[orchidea]

We use the "lei" form when we talk to someone we don't know well; but if this person is about our age, we can use the "tu" form even if we don't know each other.

"lei" = when we don't know the person with whom we talk; when we talk with an old person or with ours superiors

"tu" = when we know the person with whom we talk or, if we don't, she/he is about our age.

I hope it's useful.

 

[TrentinaNE]

"tu" = when we know the person with whom we talk or, if we don't, she/he is about our age.

Grazie, kan e orchidea. I think Leibe's concern might be: if she uses the tu form with a man of her own age that she doesn't know well, will he think she's being overly familiar? From your explanations, I would think not, and that instead, he might think she's being overly formal if she addresses him as lei.

Other thoughts?

Elisabetta

 

[orchidea]

You think well! He might think she's being overly formal if she addresses him as lei.

 

[Mickele]

Ciao. Condivido le affermazioni di kan3. Aggiungo che - a mio parere - in alcuni contesti e situazioni è facile passare rapidamente dal "Lei" al "tu" per esempio quando conosci qualcuno da poco ma trovi dei legami in comune (siete della stessa città o avete frequentato la stessa università oppure, parlando in senso lato, appartenete allo stesso "club"...). In alcune circostanze è possibile anche il contrario, ovvero inizi con il "tu" ma dalla reazione di colui che ti ascolta credi sia meglio passare al "Lei" per mantenere un certo distacco. In alcuni ambiti (anche familiari) ed in alcune regioni (si usa spesso anche in Toscana) persiste un'ulteriore forma di rispetto, il "Voi". Io stesso mi rivolgo col "Voi" (al singolare) ad alcuni miei conoscenti molto anziani e la cosa sorprendente è che anche i loro stessi figli usano il "Voi" quando si rivolgono ai genitori. Un po' complicato, vero? Sono sicuro che altre opinioni seguiranno.

 

[kan3malato]

We use the "lei" form when we talk to someone we don't know well; but if this person is about our age, we can use the "tu" form even if we don't know each other.

"lei" = when we don't know the person with whom we talk; when we talk with an old person or with ours superiors

"tu" = when we know the person with whom we talk or, if we don't, she/he is about our age.

I hope it's useful.

Ciao.
Non sono totalmente daccordo, dipende molto dall'età secondo me, indipendentemente se hanno la solita età.
Immagina due "signore" sposate intorno ai 45/50 anni (anche meno) che si incontrano al supermercato e casualmente si parlano" Signora, prego passi lei"/"che ne pensa di questi pannolini.." /" oh! dovrebbe prendere questa marca di detersivo, sapesse è miracoloso"/ "ha visto lo sconto sui surgelati?"
Tanto per rendere l'idea...

 

[MünchnerFax]

We use the "lei" form when we talk to someone we don't know well; but if this person is about our age, we can use the "tu" form even if we don't know each other.

You think well! He might think she's being overly formal if she addresses him as lei.

Non sono per niente d'accordo su questo discorso che persone coetanee si diano automaticamente del tu, dipende molto dall'età. Se i due sono giovani (sotto i 30 anni), si daranno subito del tu. Ma se sono per esempio due cinquantenni che non si sono mai incontrati prima, al 99,9% si daranno del lei, e nessuno dei due penserà di comportarsi in modo troppo formale. Anzi, sarebbe considerato piuttosto sfacciato indirizzarsi con il tu.

Io stesso che ho meno di 30 anni considero con un certo fastidio che mi apostrofi con il tu un perfetto sconosciuto più anziano di me, se il contesto è 'serioso' come all'università o sul luogo di lavoro, o perché no anche tra compagni di viaggio sul treno; e ovviamente in queste condizioni uso sempre il lei. Ma qui dipende anche, per l'appunto, dalla sensibilità personale al tema e dal contesto.

 

[Akire72]

Io do del Lei alle persone che non conosco diciamo dai 40/45 anni in su, ai clienti del mio negozio, ai miei capi ingegneri, a commessi di negozi/bar/agenzie ecc (se over 20/25).

Do del tu agli amici, ai colleghi, ai familiari, a persone che hanno dai 30 in giù anche se estranee (es. entro in un bar la barista è una ragazza giovane le do del tu anche se non l'ho mai vista).

Non credo che dare del tu a una persona giovane sia mancanza di rispetto. Io, quando hanno cominciato a chiamarmi "signora" e a darmi del Lei, mi sono sentita terribilmente vecchia!

 

[TrentinaNE]

So.... what's the age cut-off (più o meno) of people who would be more likely to address a new acquaintance of roughly the same age, who is not "superior" in the sense of authority, with lei instead of tu?

For example, say I'm visiting my relatives in Trentino, and a cousin introduces me to a friend about my age (which you can all see is 50). Would he or she think I was being presumptuous if I used "tu"? Should I use "lei" until invited to do otherwise?

Elisabetta

 

[Paulfromitaly]

So.... what's the age cut-off (più o meno) of people who would be more likely to address a new acquaintance of roughly the same age, who is not "superior" in the sense of authority, with lei instead of tu?

For example, say I'm visiting my relatives in Trentino, and a cousin introduces me to a friend about my age (which you can all see is 50). Would he or she think I was being presumptuous if I used "tu"? Should I use "lei" until invited to do otherwise?

Elisabetta

If I were in your shoes, I'd use "lei" for 2 reasons:

First because people in their 40s or older would say "lei";
Second because approaching a person you've never met before using "tu" might give the wrong impression that you do it down to a lack of knowledge of the right form to use (typical of some foreigners) whereas I'm sure you speak Italian very well.

 

[kan3malato]

So.... what's the age cut-off (più o meno) of people who would be more likely to address a new acquaintance of roughly the same age, who is not "superior" in the sense of authority, with lei instead of tu?

For example, say I'm visiting my relatives in Trentino, and a cousin introduces me to a friend about my age (which you can all see is 50). Would he or she think I was being presumptuous if I used "tu"? Should I use "lei" until invited to do otherwise?

Elisabetta

In my opinion you should start using "lei" and then if the situation Will be allow to do it you can use "tu"..



A volte poi capita di incontrare dei tipi che anche prima che tu parli, dal modo come sono vestiti e si atteggiano sembrano dirti "Dammi del lei", come mi piace in queste situazioni dargli a "chiocco" del "tu".. ;-D


ps
Elisabetta Have a look at my English,please ;-D

 

[cas29]

My feeling is that I'd rather make the error of being too formal at first, -- that is a "polite" error and no one will think worse of you if you make it.

I'm pretty close to your age Elisabetta, and I'd use Lei to anyone over 40-ish in an social setting-- but with the underlying expectation that they would suggest shifting to "tu" fairly quickly in that context.

For work, dealing with clients (the people who pay as opposed to the people I teach) I always use Lei until asked to do otherwise. If I'm the older person, (which is happening more and more! ) I sometimes suggest using tu, but not usually. I like to maintain a bit of distance.

With my students, who are generally all younger than me, I permit them to use "tu" if we speak in Italian because I want to have a relaxed relationship.

Personally I prefer to be addressed with lei at first, because I like the "distance" involved. (For example, at my bank in Canada I really DISLIKE it when the staff at the bank call me by my first name--- I don't feel this is professional behaviour).

Like many things in Italy, it isn't black and white.
However, just as, in Milan it is almost impossible to be "too dressed up"... in general I'd say it is impossible to be "too polite" --- especially if you are a foreigner!

 

[Paulfromitaly]

My feeling is that I'd rather make the error of being too formal at first, -- that is a "polite" error and no one will think worse of you if you make it.

I'm pretty close to your age Elisabetta, and I'd use Lei to anyone over 40-ish in an social setting-- but with the underlying expectation that they would suggest shifting to "tu" fairly quickly in that context.

For work, dealing with clients (the people who pay as opposed to the people I teach) I always use Lei until asked to do otherwise. If I'm the older person, (which is happening more and more! ) I sometimes suggest using tu, but not usually. I like to maintain a bit of distance.

With my students, who are generally all younger than me, I permit them to use "tu" if we speak in Italian because I want to have a relaxed relationship.

Personally I prefer to be addressed with lei at first, because I like the "distance" involved. (For example, at my bank in Canada I really DISLIKE it when the staff at the bank call me by my first name--- I don't feel this is professional behaviour).

Like many things in Italy, it isn't black and white.
However, just as, in Milan it is almost impossible to be "too dressed up"... in general I'd say it is impossible to be "too polite" --- especially if you are a foreigner!

You drew a perfect pic of the situation: I'd stick with it.

 

[Ron V]

In another thread, we got off on a tangent when I brought up my earlier question about the use of vuole and vorrebbe and got into lei versus tu usage.

The last comment was:
If the method that Ron uses addresses all people with "Lei" I think that's ridiculous. In Italy, no one uses "Lei" for family or friends.

My language course - I'm about halfway into level I - uses lei for every reference to the second person as in:
vorrebbe bere con lei? Given the quote above, obviously 'lei' is not used as often as is indicated in the course to the point I have progressed.
I would be grateful for some specific examples of what to use when:
talking to airport personnel, a cab driver, hotel operator, shop owner
talking to a waiter who has been very friendly with me
in a conversation with people who are very new friends in Italy
talking to my family

molte grazie

 

[Evito]

It also depends how old you are. I'm 22, and I would always address airport personnel, a cab driver, hotel operator, or a shop owner with "Lei" unless they had my age or were younger than me.

To people of the same age you usually say "Tu".

The same goes for a waiter...if the person is a bit older than you, I think you would have to say "Lei" but if it's a younger person you don't have to.

New friends, I would absolutely say "Tu". Family: Always use "Tu".

It's better if someone else specifies how Italians handel this because I'm from The Netherlands, but I don't think there's a big difference. I'm a polite person so I think you could use these rules.

I have two Italian teachers, of about 40 and 50, and they don't really mind if we use Tu or Lei. I use Lei, to be polite.

With other teachers, I sometimes use "Tu".

In our course there's also an older gentleman of about 65 years of age. In the beginning I used to use "Lei" with him (or the Dutch equivalent) but now I don't because I got to know him better.

My Italian friend at the university says that in her family they always used "Tu" even for grandma and grandpa (in the Netherlands we might have to use "Lei").

I don't think the Italians are overly polite. It also seems to have to do with the city you're in. I've been told in Rome everyone uses "Tu", but outside the city you might hear more "Lei".

 

[ElaineG]

talking to airport personnel, a cab driver, hotel operator, shop owner -- you can't go wrong using Lei, but since they know you are a foreigner no one will be offended if you say tu
talking to a waiter who has been very friendly with me - Again, Lei is appropriate unless the waiter is a teenager or similar.
in a conversation with people who are very new friends in Italy - with new friends, you can stick with Lei until they invite you to use "tu" (usually happens quite rapidly). Again, though, when I first moved to Italy, I made ample use of tu since I didn't really have a grip on Lei and no one got offended.

talking to my family - tu tu tu...

 

[x_moose_x]

Hi!

I'm writing an information booklet for a fictional town and was wondering which person to use throughout! Should it be voi? ie

'se non vorreste rilassarsi in spiaggia tutto il giorno....'

or would you use 'si' as in, in English 'one' ? ie

'se non vorrebbe rilassarsi in spiaggia....'

Thanks!

 

[Kraus]

It's better to use "voi". "Lei" is a bit cool. "Se non voleste rilassarvi in spiaggia tutto il giorno..."

 

[arenas]

It's better to use "voi". "Lei" is a bit cool. "Se non voleste rilassarvi in spiaggia tutto il giorno..."

Ottimo suggerimento!
Ricorda che se usi il congiuntivo nell'ipotesi, la conseguenza richiede il condizionale. Ad esempio:
Se non voleste rilassarvi in spiaggia tutto il giorno, potreste visitare le bellezze della città.

Nell'ipotesi potresti anche usare l'indicativo, e il verbo nella conseguenza andrebbe all'indicativo:
Se non volete rilassarvi in spiaggia tutto il giorno, potete visitare le bellezze della città.

Comunque, poiché una guida non pretende di sapere con certezza le preferenze del lettore , io starei sul congiuntivo come suggerito da Kraus

Ciao

 

[Stumpy457]

I am going to Italy in a few months and I just wanted to be sure to get this right: when you go into a shop, restaurant, etc., would you use Lei and Loro when talking to the staff? For instance, if I go into a book shop and want to find Le Avventure di Alice nel Paese delle Meraviglie (which I do, BTW XD), would I say, 'Hanno il libro Le Avventure...' or would I say 'Avete...'? I'm just a little confused on this one...(and just when I thought I understoond T/V distinction, this rolls up!)

Grazie!

 

[Danieloid]

You'd ask: "Mi scusi, avete Le avventure di Alice nel paese delle meraviglie?"
Mi scusi, (you, the man in the bookshop who I'm speaking to - singular - formal) avete (you, the owners of the bookshop - plural) Le avventure di Alice nel paese delle meraviglie?
The Tu/Lei problem, discussed in this thread, is for singular form.

 

[-STEVE-]

You can also use "Loro":
"Hanno loro il libro "Le avventure di Alice nel paese delle meraviglie"?
It's a very ancient formal form.
If you said that to a shop assistant, he or she would take some time to realise the meaning of the question, just because it's arcaic.

 

[brian]

You can also use "Loro":
"Hanno loro il libro "Le avventure di Alice nel paese delle meraviglie"?
It's a very ancient formal form.
If you said that to a shop assistant, he or she would take some time to realise the meaning of the question, just because it's arcaic.

Then that would probably mean you can't use it. Right?

Just like I'd tell a non-native English speaker that you can't ask a shopkeep, "Doth thou have Alice in Wonderland?" even though maybe once upon a time you could say it.

 

[federicoft]

Loro as a formal pronoun is a bit old-fashioned. The informal pronoun (Voi) is perceived polite enough when addressing more than one person.
Still, should I address two old ladies, I would use it. But I agree those are just niceties.

 

[brian]

Really?

A few years ago when I first started learning Italian, I read in some thread here some Italian say something like, "Even if I were addressing the present and the pope, I'd still use voi" because loro is so outdated and odd-sounding. And in my personal experience I've never ever heard loro used as a formal voi (even though it's in our textbooks).

But I suppose it depends on a lot of things. I also don't hang out with many prestigious people.

 

[federicoft]

I also don't hang out with my prestigious people.

So do I, still I would feel a bit uncomfortable by saying e.g. "scendete alla prossima fermata?" to an elderly couple. Probably it's a matter of personal perceptions.

Actually even in restaurants or shops is not so uncommon to address customers with Loro: "i signori desiderano?".

 

[brian]

Sorry, that "my" should've been "many," of course!

Okay but "I signori desiderano" is a little different, no? It would sound a little weird to say, for example, "Voi signori desiderate.." wouldn't it? I think the inclusion of "signori" allows for the "loro" form much more easily.

If you take out the direct address, it sounds a little weirder, doesn't it? Would you say, for example, "Mi scusano, (loro) hanno già chiesto?" to ask "Scusatemi (signori), avete già chiesto?" It just sounds weird, but maybe because it's very very formal/old and I'm not used to it.

 

[AlabamaBoy]

Brian, it was more than 30 years ago, but my friend and I were going to rent an apartment in Trieste that was being vacated by an elderly lady. Every time she spoke to us she insisted on calling us "Loro" instead of "voi" -- at first we felt like looking around to see who else was there - and sometimes we would get completely confused and she'd have to use "voi" and then she pretended to be embarrassed and apologized for using "voi." The story about the bank director and private detective reminded me of this incident.

 

[vale_ca]

Cogliendo un ottimo suggerimento, propongo due casi e due domande a proposito di Lei e tu.

Non considerando il caso a): "Lei", quando ci si rivolge a qualcuno usando un titolo (Signore, Avvocato, Professore...); o il caso b): "tu" tra amici, familiari o coetanei; ci sono i seguenti casi:

caso c) ci si rivolge a qualcuno usando il cognome e il Lei
esempi: un insegnante che si rivolge agli allievi (di solito adulti)
io quando mi rivolgo al direttore del personale della mia azienda

caso d) ci si rivolge a qualcuno usando il nome e il Lei
esempi: un avvocato che si rivolge alla segretaria
io quando mi rivolgo alla badante di mio padre

Domanda 1) c'e' un modo per distinguere in inglese i casi c) e d) tra loro e dal caso b)?

Domanda 2) traducendo un romanzo dall'inglese in italiano e' meglio usare Lei o voi nei casi a), c) e d)?
(Ho visto usare entrambi i modi).

Grazie per il vostro illuminato parere

 

[AlabamaBoy]

For question 1.

In English, the difference between Lei and tu in these cases is not an exact equivalent to Italian, but Lei is indicated in several ways:


a) the use of Mr. or Ms. and the last name (cognome)
b) the use of passive voice
c) the use of impersonal phrases
d) the use of very polite or formal language
e) avoiding speaking of one's personal relationships (they are taboo for someone you would dare del "Lei"
f) other non verbal cues - respecting personal space, acting as if you were in public (no personal grooming or other things considered impolite in public)

For tu, conversely, it is shown by

a) speaking in conversational English
b) more use of idioms, punctuating speech with jokes or slightly off color references
c) all subjects are fair game
d) freedom to make self deprecating remarks, or slight insults
e) very direct and personal phrasing
f) reducing sentences to only the essential words
g) use of local pronunciation or phrasing (similar to dialects)
h) non verbal cues

(Unfortunately, some people do some from the Lei group and some from the tu group, leading to some confusion. For example I have had people come right up and touch me while talking, yet use polite language and impersonal forms. This left me bewildered. In Alabama, a lot of people speak only the local Southern so, they may be very formal while still speaking Southern. In certain rural areas in the South, there is no Lei/tu differentiation that I can notice. )

Question 2

I am not qualified to answer. I always saw "voi" in books but "Lei" in real-life. That seems to be because I lived in Lombardia, Veneto, and Friuli. But I understood books were edited in Rome.

 

[federicoft]

Domanda 2) traducendo un romanzo dall'inglese in italiano e' meglio usare Lei o voi nei casi a), c) e d)?
(Ho visto usare entrambi i modi).

Direi decisamente 'Lei'.
Il 'voi' come pronome formale penso si possa ormai definire un meridionalismo.