FR: adjectif possessif devant un nom féminin commençant par une voyelle : ma, ta, sa / mon, ton, son

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salallyb

Senior Member
English, England
hiya, I was just wondering if you say son or sa origine. I know origine is feminine but it's easier to say son origine, which would I use?

Moderator note: Multiple threads merged to create this one.
 
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  • DearPrudence

    Dépêche Mod (AL mod)
    IdF
    French (lower Normandy)
    You're right, before a vowel, even if the word is feminine, it should be "mon":
    "son origine"
    & "mon amie" & "mon ami" are pronounced exactly the same way :)
     

    nils.pra

    Senior Member
    french france
    hello,
    we say son origine ,
    Devant un mot féminin dont l'initiale est une voyelle ou un h muet, on utilise mon, ton, son, au lieu de ma, ta, sa.
    hope this helps : )
     

    My Sunshine

    New Member
    English (United States)
    I was told that when you are referring to your female friend, you say "mon amie" rather than "ma amie," although it is feminine.

    Is this correct, and is it the same for ange, since it starts with an a?
    For instance, if I am calling one of my female friends "my angel," would I call her "mon ange" or "ma ange?"

    I've been saying "mon ange," but she insists that it is incorrect because her friend who is majoring in French said it should be "ma ange."

    I could be wrong, but I'm unsure.

    Could anyone please help clear this up?
     

    thorpig

    Senior Member
    Canadian English
    You never have a possessive pronoun ending in a vowel paired with a noun beginning with a vowel! The difficulty in pronunciation has resulted in this usage.
     

    Jsprilliman

    New Member
    USA and English
    When the possesive pronoun sa is used before a noun starting with a vowel does it become son?

    My phrase is
    Sa explication était très informative

    Explication is a feminine noun but when I looked up explication in context it always had son preceding it.

    Merci,
    J.
     

    FBC

    Senior Member
    French
    Franglais is right (of course) but the reason why : we try to avoid having two voyels following each other. Pronounciation issues I guess.
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    It's just like the English article a, which turns into an before words that start with a vowel sound. ;)
     

    nino4ka

    Senior Member
    Hello! I saw somewhere being written 'ma hantise, c'est de me retrouver en milieu hospitalier'. I wondered very much why it wasn't 'mon hantise' since as far as I'm concerned, the 'h' here is mute. Why 'ma'?
     
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    Donaldos

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Le 'h' de "hantise" (ou "hanter") est bien aspiré, dans le sens où on ne lie pas la première syllabe contenant ce 'h' à la dernière du mot précédent. Ce 'h' aspiré se manifeste donc par une très légère pause entre deux mots au lieu de la liaison habituelle. On est par contre assez loin du 'h' aspiré tel qu'on le trouve en finnois par exemple, d'où peut-être une certaine confusion...
     

    MichiganQuebec

    New Member
    U.S. English
    There are two ways the H is used in French. It can be an "H muet" or an "H aspiré". Both are technically "mute". The difference is that the "H muet" requires a liaison with the word before it, whereas the "H aspiré" prohibits such a liaison.

    Examples (H muet) : l'homme, l'heure, l'honnêteté, etc. (not "le homme" or "la heure")
    Examples (H aspiré) : le hibou, le haricot, la hantise, etc. (not "l'hibou" or "l'haricot")

    Please note that an "H muet" is always preceeded by the masculine (mon, son, ton) regardless of the word's gender, but an "H aspiré" is preceeded by the masculine or feminine, depending on the word's gender.

    Example (H muet): mon honnêteté (feminine word beginning with an H muet)
    Example (H aspiré): ma hantise (feminine word beginning with an H aspiré)
     

    tilt

    Senior Member
    French French
    Also note that the term aspiré is totally improper in French. Contrary to most languages which really have an aspirated h, French never prounouces its h.
    The only difference between h aspiré and h muet stands in considering the former like a consonant and the latter like not existing before the following vowel (with the consequences it has on elisions, liaisons, and possessives).
     

    ippadi

    New Member
    English - England
    I'm revising for my exams next week and was wondering about the correct pronoun to use for the word 'affirmation'. I know it's a feminine word so should be preceded by 'sa' BUT is that right?

    I've seen 'son attention' written and this is also a feminine word, is it correct to write this way or is it just for speech, to make it easier to pronounce?

    Many thanks
     

    janpol

    Senior Member
    France - français
    "on ne fait pas suivre deux voyelles en français", dis-tu, Captain...
    C'est vrai. On pourrait ajouter "quand c'est possible" car, malgré tous les moyens qu'on a imaginés pour éviter les hiatus, on peut tout de même en rencontrer qui traînent ici ou là... (tiens, dans "ici ou là", justement...)
    "son attention" = "on" étant une voyelle, on a tout de même là deux voyelles qui se suivent mais, comme, par chance, cette nasale se transcrit avec un "n", on fait la liaison et on n'a plus tout à fait deux voyelles qui se suivent puisqu'une consonne vient s'intercaler et permet de faire la liaison...
     

    Lothar64

    New Member
    French
    Toujours utiliser "son" lorsque le nom commence par une voyelle.

    Always use "son" when the noun begin by a vowel.

    Quite easy for once in French language ;)
     

    Ralphie

    Member
    England, English
    Salut

    Je comprend que si un mot commence avec une voyelle je dois utiliser son et pas sa même si c'est feminine mais je ne suis pas certain avec le mot habitude.

    Son ou sa?

    Merci x
     

    wublili

    New Member
    Finland, Finnish
    Salut tout le monde.

    Could someone tell me which is the right way to write it. Because I'm not quite sure in which form the possessive pronoun should be...

    "Mon ange" should be correct. The pronoun is in masculine form due to liaison.

    But what about when there's an extra adjective added such in following case. Both could be pronounced easily (well, at least I could), so I'm not sure if there is needed to worry about that liaison.

    Ma petit ange

    or is it

    Mon petit ange


    I know the adjective needs to be in masculine because of the liaison. Should the possessive pronoun also be in masculine form as is the adjective ? Or should it be feminine like is the noun itself ?
     

    janpol

    Senior Member
    France - français
    "ange" est masculin (même si l'on n'a jamais apporté de réponse définitive à la question concernant le sexe des anges !)
    donc "ma petite ange" est incorrect et "mon petit ange" est correct
    les noms féminins commençant par une voyelle sont précédés d'un possessif masculin qui devient féminin si l'on ajoute un adjectif antéposé commençant par une consonne
    "âme" = féminin - son âme - sa belle âme -
    oeuvre - son oeuvre - sa principale oeuvre - son immense oeuvre -
    amie - mon amie - ma chère amie - mon incomparable amie -

    Wublili, tu parles de "pronoms", ce sont des adjectifs possessifs
     
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    finaud

    Senior Member
    english
    I was looking at other threads and how they use the word 'mon' before some feminine words starting with vowels or vowel sounds like histoire. when you have a vowel sound like 'h' eg hesitation, hypothese or hyperbole do you always employ the word mom (or son)?
     

    Surfin' Bird

    Senior Member
    French;France.
    No probs!

    Eh oui, la voilà la règle (me semble-t-il):
    Mon, ton, son devant les h muets.
    Ma, ta, sa devant les h aspirés.

    Et pour savoir si un h est aspiré ou non, se référer au dictionnaire...
     

    Micia93

    Senior Member
    France French
    all right, so, just to clarify for Finaud (the notion of "aspiré" and "muet" can be confusing for a non-native):
    "la haine", "la hâte", "la hiérarchie", "la hyène" => use "ma"
    "l'histoire", "l'hésitation", l'hypothèse" => use "mon"

    :=)
     

    Krendoshazin

    New Member
    English - England
    Hi,

    I know that when a feminine noun starts with a vowel -- such as 'amie' -- the masculine possessive is used: thus the correct grammar would be 'mon amie'. However, does this still apply if a premodifier is used, specifically in the case of 'petite amie'? Where 'little friend' means something specific -- that being one's girlfriend -- I wonder if 'petite amie' counts as a noun by itself, thus requiring 'ma'.
     

    Maître Capello

    Mod et ratures
    French – Switzerland
    No, the rule indeed exists only for the euphony. It therefore only applies when the possessive directly precedes a word beginning with a vowel (or mute h).

    mon amie
    ma petite amie
    mon admirable amie
    ma hautaine amie (aspirated h)
    mon hilare amie (mute h)
     

    Morganlove

    Senior Member
    French
    Hi krendoshazin, if you use the term of "petite amie", the pronoun "ma" is required, given that you are a boy, and the person you are talking about is a girl.

    However if a girl says "petit ami" she needs to add "mon", because she is talking about a boy.

    Hope that helps :)
     
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    Legally Drunk

    New Member
    Russian & Ukrainian
    Hello everybody!

    So I know that we say mon amie instead of ma amie, mon école instead of ma école, etc. This way, we omit using two vowels in a row (ma amie)

    We also say ma maison, but mon ancienne maison (again, the making things soundy rule)


    So, the rule should be:
    Masculine noun starting with a consonant will be used with ma, ta, sa, etc.
    Feminine noun starting with vowel or h will be used with mon, ton, son, etc.

    Unless there is an adjective in between.


    Is it right?

    Does this rule always apply?

    I've never heard a person say ma désir, but mon désir.
     

    Bezoard

    Senior Member
    French - France
    You are wrong.
    1) Masculine noun starting with a consonant will be used with ma, ta, sa, etc.
    No. All masculine nouns are used with mon, ton, son : mon désir.
    2) Feminine noun starting with vowel or h will be used with mon, ton, son, etc.
    Unless there is an adjective in between.
    No. As you noticed, we also say "mon ancienne maison" (but "ma vieille maison", mon assez vieille maison").
    So, for feminine nouns, we use the possessive adjectives ma, ta, sa, except if the possessive adjective is followed by a word (noun, adjective, adverb) starting with a vowel or a mute "h", in which case ma, ta, sa is replaced by mon, ton son.
    Quelle est la règle pour utiliser « mon » avec des noms féminins ?
     
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