FR: après avoir (avoiding) future tense

Icetrance

Senior Member
US English
Bonjour!

I have noticed that in French, the future tense is often avoided after the subordinating conjunction "après que."

For example,

Tu peux m'apporter le vin après tu m'as servi le pain.
Je le ferai après t'avoir appelé.

après que tu m'as servi le pain
après que tu m'aie servi le pain
apres que tu m'aura servi le pain
 
  • marget

    Senior Member
    Bonjour!

    I have noticed that in French, the future tense is often avoided after the subordinating conjunction "après que."

    For example,

    Tu peux m'apporter le vin après tu m'as servi le pain.
    Je le ferai après t'avoir appelé.

    après que tu m'as servi le pain
    après que tu m'aie servi le pain
    apres que tu m'aura servi le pain
    If the subject is the same in both clauses, I think you should use the past infinitive after après.
     

    JeanDeSponde

    Senior Member
    France, Français
    [...]
    I have noticed that in French, the future tense is often avoided after the subordinating conjunction "après que."
    It is the other way round:
    Après que is always followed by a subjonctive (or, as marget rightly suggested, an infinitive).
    And there is no future form for subjonctive.
    Hence, you just cannot use a future after après que.
     

    Icetrance

    Senior Member
    US English
    It is the other way round:
    Après que is always followed by a subjonctive (or, as marget rightly suggested, an infinitive).
    And there is no future form for subjonctive.
    Hence, you just cannot use a future after après que.
    Tu peux me donner du pain après m'avoir servi du vin.

    You sure can use a future. It's just that people don't use it anymore.

    Appelle-moi après que tu sera arrivé. But, people don't say that, even though it's correct.

    They'd say "après être arrivé" ou bien "après tu sois arrivé."
     

    Gil

    Senior Member
    Français, Canada
    On utilise aussi le futur antérieur:
    Exemple:
    Après que tu auras lu mon essai, tu seras convaincu.....

    Pour tes exemples,
    "Appelle-moi dès ton arrivée, ton retour" me semble plus naturel et plus simple.
     

    JeanDeSponde

    Senior Member
    France, Français
    Tu peux me donner du pain après m'avoir servi du vin.:thumbsup:
    Like Marget said, infinitive is OK after après que.
    Appelle-moi après que tu seras arrivé:thumbsdown:. But, people don't say that, even though it's correct.
    Well - since the middle of the last century, après que is built with subj. (to make a long story short, for the sake of symmetry with avant que).
    But it was not by decree, as if out of the blue: it was a massive adoption at the beginning of the XXe.
    And now après que + ind. is almost obsolete.
    So yes, you could technically use a future - but be prepared for angry remarks...
     

    Icetrance

    Senior Member
    US English
    On utilise aussi le futur antérieur:
    Exemple:
    Après que tu auras lu mon essai, tu seras convaincu.....

    Pour tes exemples,
    "Appelle-moi dès ton arrivée, ton retour" me semble plus naturel et plus simple.
    Bien évidemment! Je voulais dire si la personne insiste sur l'usage de la conjonction subordonnée "après que." J'aurais dû me faire mieux comprendre.
     

    jann

    co-mod'
    English - USA
    Après que is always followed by a subjonctive
    We anglophones are generally taught that the indicative is technically required after après que.

    We also learn that the subjunctive is increasingly heard by analogy with avant que, after which it is of course required (provided that you have the necessary double subject).

    See here, for example.
     

    JeanDeSponde

    Senior Member
    France, Français
    Like Marget said, infinitive is OK after après que.
    She wrote "après", not "après que"
    That's right - point taken.

    We anglophones are generally taught that the indicative is technically required after après que.
    We also learn that the subjunctive is increasingly heard by analogy with avant que, after which it is of course required (provided that you have the necessary double subject).
    See here, for example.
    As highlighted in your link, the matter is hotly discussed among specialists - and the core reason is that après que + ind. is de facto becoming obsolete, therefore many people deplore it.

    Again, I'm not saying it's good or bad - it just is.

    As the subj. is now predominant after après que, and as no future is available for subj., it seemed to me that this might be an explanation for Icetrance sound remark that inf. was indeed now predominant against future.

    Now, I admit I was a bit authoritarian when I said "no indicative after après que". Just be aware that it is not as widely used as you would have thought.
    Try saying "après que je suis allé au restaurant, je suis rentré chez moi" - you'll see what I mean...
     

    Gil

    Senior Member
    Français, Canada
    Try saying "après que je suis allé au restaurant, je suis rentré chez moi" - you'll see what I mean...
    Ben d'accord. Si on trouve plus concis et plus élégant (plutôt facile dans ce cas), c'est ce qu'on va faire et tant pis pour l'indicatif ou le subjonctif.:)
     

    jann

    co-mod'
    English - USA
    I didn't mean to say that the subj vs. ind debate wasn't current, or that the subjunctive after après que wasn't common to the point of everyday use. :)

    I admit I was a bit authoritarian when I said "no indicative after après que". Just be aware that it is not as widely used as you would have thought.
    Try saying "après que je suis allé au restaurant, je suis rentré chez moi" - you'll see what I mean...
    Yes, but I would never say "après que je sois allée au restaurant, je suis rentrée chez moi" either! :D There is no debate that the infinitive is a much better choice here: après être allée au resto... And I could even justify the choice of the infinitive with one of those French grammar rules we English speakers learn: to use the subjunctive, you need two different subject pronouns, but here we only have one (je).

    On the other hand, let's think of a good sentence with 2 subjects (nous, Alice):

    Nous sommes rentrés à la maison après qu'Alice s'est fait une entorse à la cheville. (indicative)
    vs.
    Nous sommes rentrés à la maison après qu'Alice se soit fait une entorse à la cheville. (subjunctive)

    They're both equally awkward, and I guess the 2nd one is more common, even though the first one is technically the correct choice. I know, I know... you would just avoid the whole darn thing and say: Alice s'est fait mal à la cheville et nous sommes donc rentrés à la maison. :p
     

    JeanDeSponde

    Senior Member
    France, Français
    Yes, but I would never say "après que je sois allée au restaurant, je suis rentrée chez moi" either! :D
    Indeed - one of my worst examples ever!...
    [...]On the other hand, let's think of a good sentence with 2 subjects (nous, Alice):
    Nous sommes rentrés à la maison après qu'Alice s'est fait une entorse à la cheville. (indicative)
    vs.
    Nous sommes rentrés à la maison après qu'Alice se soit fait une entorse à la cheville. (subjunctive)​
    They're both equally awkward, and I guess the 2nd one is more common,[...]
    Let me update my example after a 3-hour rest:
    J'ai vu que j'avais gardé tes billets après que tu sois montée dans le train
    vs.
    J'ai vu que j'avais gardé tes billets après que tu es montée dans le train
    The 1st is OK (I hope!); most people will frown at the 2nd.
     

    geostan

    Senior Member
    English Canada
    There are two issues being discussed in this thread:

    1. using the preposition rather than the conjunction when possible;

    2. which tense/mood to use with the conjunction.

    I think it's clear than when there is but one subject the past infintive with après is proper. It has also been shown in examples that where a noun exists alongside a verb, it may be used even when the subjects are different.

    After he has written his speech, he will go to bed.
    Après avoir rédigé son discours, il se couchera.

    After they leave, he will go to bed.
    Après leur départ, il se couchera.

    2. Formally, the futur antérieur should be used with the conjunction après que, when the main verb refers to a future event and the subjects of the two clauses are different. While the subjunctive is often found, most authorities still advocate the use of the futur antérieur.

    This may be another case of grammar not catching up with prevailing usage, but until it is officially sanctioned I will continue to avoid the subjunctive with après que.

    Cheers!
     

    Icetrance

    Senior Member
    US English
    This may be another case of grammar not catching up with prevailing usage, but until it is officially sanctioned I will continue to avoid the subjunctive with après que.

    Cheers!
    Absolutely!

    Although language rules are not always logical, it is definitely not logical to use the subjunctive tense after the subordinating conjunction "après que."
    I know many French speakers who do use it, but it is not "la forme la plus correcte."

    Je ne me suis jamais fait à me servir du temps subjonctif après "apres que."
    J'emploie toujours soit le participe passé, soit "l'indicatif". Et selon les autorités de la langue, j'ai cent fois raison:D
     

    marget

    Senior Member
    I didn't mean to say that the subj vs. ind debate wasn't current, or that the subjunctive after après que wasn't common to the point of everyday use. :)

    Yes, but I would never say "après que je sois allée au restaurant, je suis rentrée chez moi" either! :D There is no debate that the infinitive is a much better choice here: après être allée au resto... And I could even justify the choice of the infinitive with one of those French grammar rules we English speakers learn: to use the subjunctive, you need two different subject pronouns, but here we only have one (je).

    On the other hand, let's think of a good sentence with 2 subjects (nous, Alice):

    Nous sommes rentrés à la maison après qu'Alice s'est fait une entorse à la cheville. (indicative)
    vs.
    Nous sommes rentrés à la maison après qu'Alice se soit fait une entorse à la cheville. (subjunctive)

    They're both equally awkward, and I guess the 2nd one is more common, even though the first one is technically the correct choice. I know, I know... you would just avoid the whole darn thing and say: Alice s'est fait mal à la cheville et nous sommes donc rentrés à la maison. :p

    I wonder if the plus-que-parfait should be used in your example. I think I would say "Nous sommes rentrés à la maison après qu'elle s'était fait une entorse à la cheville" because the two actions happened in different time frames.
     

    geostan

    Senior Member
    English Canada
    I didn't mean to say that the subj vs. ind debate wasn't current, or that the subjunctive after après que wasn't common to the point of everyday use. :)

    Yes, but I would never say "après que je sois allée au restaurant, je suis rentrée chez moi" either! :D There is no debate that the infinitive is a much better choice here: après être allée au resto... And I could even justify the choice of the infinitive with one of those French grammar rules we English speakers learn: to use the subjunctive, you need two different subject pronouns, but here we only have one (je).

    On the other hand, let's think of a good sentence with 2 subjects (nous, Alice):

    Nous sommes rentrés à la maison après qu'Alice s'est fait une entorse à la cheville. (indicative)
    vs.
    Nous sommes rentrés à la maison après qu'Alice se soit fait une entorse à la cheville. (subjunctive)

    They're both equally awkward, and I guess the 2nd one is more common, even though the first one is technically the correct choice. I know, I know... you would just avoid the whole darn thing and say: Alice s'est fait mal à la cheville et nous sommes donc rentrés à la maison. :p
    If you wish to make the sentence particularly awkward, try using the passé surcomposé:

    Nous sommes rentrés à la maison après qu'Alice s'est eu fait une entorse à la cheville. (indicative)


    Cheers!
     
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