FR: encore - place de l'adverbe

Discussion in 'French and English Grammar / Grammaire française et anglaise' started by senorcobra, Dec 18, 2008.

  1. senorcobra New Member

    English
    Hello, I would like to know the correct adverb placement for the word "encore," when there are two verbs.

    Example:
    We can play again

    On peut encore jouer? or
    On peut jouer encore?

    Moderator note: multiple threads merged to create this one
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2012
  2. Angle O'Phial

    Angle O'Phial Senior Member

    USA English
    On peut encore jouer ? => Can we still play?
    On peut jouer encore ? => Can we play again?
     
  3. temple09 Senior Member

    English - British
    I am trying to find out the flexibility there is in sentence structure containing the word "encore" when it is to mean "again".
    In English the word order can be quite flexible, depending on where you want to put the emphasis. For example -
    "I have failed my license (once) again"
    "Again I have failed my license"
    "I have again failed my license"
    Whilst the first example is the most common, the other two can be used also, especially in oral.
    So, is there any flexibility in the following -
    "J'ai encore loupé mon permis"
    And if so, does it have any implication on the meaning?

    So does this imply that "J'ai encore loupé mon permis" actually means "I have still failed my license" rather than "I have failed my license again"?
    Hence, to say I have failed my license again I should say -
    "J'ai loupé encore mon permis"
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2010
  4. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    J'ai encore loupé mon permis
    You can also say J'ai loupé mon permis encore une fois.
    --> I failed, I've failed my license exam (yet, once) again.
    ("I 'still' failed my license" doesn't mean really anything, after all. ;))

    J'ai loupé encore mon permis
    --> this doesn't sound natural.
    If you change mon to un then it would be natural, but the meaning would change to "I've failed yet another licensing exam," implying that you have tried for several different permis (as opposed to several attempts at the same one).
     
  5. temple09 Senior Member

    English - British
    Thank you for your help. Ironically I found this sentence on a computer programme which provides sentences in order to teach correct grammar. And, by the sound of it, if "J'ai encore loupé mon permis" is not a proper sentence, then I am now starting to doubt everything else that I have learned :-(
     
  6. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    But "J'ai encore loupé mon permis" is a proper sentence! It is familiar (because of the verb louper), but perfectly correct and current. What in the posts above made you think that it wasn't ok? :confused:
     
  7. temple09 Senior Member

    English - British
    Because Angle O' Phial translated senor cobra's suggestions as follows -

    "On peut encore jouer ? => Can we still play?"
    While Jann wrote -
    "("I 'still' failed my license" doesn't mean really anything, after all. ;))"

    They are the same sentence construction: Subject (J')/(On)+verb(ai)/(peut)+encore+verb(loupé)/(joeur) [+subject(mon permis)}

    Since they are of the same sentence construction then I assumed that to put encore in this section of the sentence means "still" and that Jann is saying that this would not be appropriate.

    I am so sorry, but I really am quite confused by this. :-(
     
  8. jann

    jann co-mod'

    English - USA
    Ok, I see. :)

    Let's just think about English for the moment. What does it means when you say, "Can we still play?" It's not hard to think of different situations where this would be a perfectly logical and natural question. It used to be ok/possible for you to play together, and you want to know if it will continue to be ok/possible. You can substitute "continue to" for "still" in this sentence because they mean the same thing. Let's call this idea (1).

    But in English, what would it mean if you said, "I still failed my exam"? The idea that you used to fail your exam and that you "continue to" fail it is illogical. Let's call this strange thought idea (2). Failing a particular exam happens at a single point in time, so the continuous idea of "still" doesn't apply. I can't think of a situation where it would make sense. This sentence might have the same structure as the one in idea (1), but it doesn't work out quite the same -- we can't use "still" to mean "continue to" in this context.

    If you took the exam several times and failed it each time, then this is several repeated instances that happened at particular points in time, and if we want to talk about any one of those repeated failures, we will say in English "I failed my exam again" (not using the word "still"). Let's call this idea (3)

    If you are thinking of a sentence such as, "I studied every day for weeks, but I still failed my exam," then this is a totally different meaning and way of using "still." You could substitute "anyway" or "none-the-less." It has nothing to do with continuity and is very different from the ideas of "continue to" and "again" that we saw in the previous examples. Let's call this idea (4).

    Now let's talk about French.

    The French word encore is for conveying ideas about continuity and repetition, the way we use "still," "(yet) again," and "always" in English. Therefore it can be used to convey ideas (1) and (3). Therefore you can use encore for both "On peut encore jouer ?" (=Can we still play?) and "J'ai encore loupé mon permis" (=I failed my license exam again).

    However, you cannot use encore to express idea (4). Perhaps this is why you are confused? This kind of "still" which means "anyway" or "none-the-less" is translated with an expression like quand même.

    Finally, when I say that "I still failed my exam" doesn't make sense as a sentence by itself, I am referring to idea (2)... which is no more logical in French than it is in English.

    Does that help? :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2010
  9. earthmerlin

    earthmerlin Senior Member

    Maryland
    English-US
    Bonjour. My question pertains to the placement of 'encore' in sentences such as 'He's still working' or 'She's still sleeping'--does it come before or after the verb (or doesn't it matter)? For example, is 'Il travaille encore' or 'Il encore travaille'? Merci d'avance.
     
  10. SwissPete

    SwissPete Senior Member

    94044 USA
    Français (CH), AE (California)
    'Il travaille encore' :tick:
    or
    'Il encore travaille' :cross:

    The same with 'toujours'.
     
  11. apprenantdufrançais Member

    Español
    Selon un livre de grammaire que j'ai lu, en français , on ne peut glisser rien entre le sujet et le verber, c'est pour cela que encore se place à la fin de la phrase.
     
  12. Mariquilla81 Member

    Español, España
    Bonjour,

    J´ai besoin que vous me jetiez un coup de main, s´il vous-plaît.

    J´ai lu que, quand l´adverbe "encore" est placé en début de phrase, il faut faire l´inversion. Par exemple:, encore est-il une personne adorable. Est-ce correct de dire encore il est une personne adorable?

    Merci d´avance
     
  13. SwissPete

    SwissPete Senior Member

    94044 USA
    Français (CH), AE (California)
    Encore est-il une personne adorable. :tick:

    Encore il est une personne adorable. :cross:
     

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