FR: I need three, I attend three (of them)

[phildavies]

I am struggling with "en" used with prepositional verbs. I understand that "en" replaces "de plus a noun", that is, en = (some/any) of (it/them) where the noun is animal, place, thing, idea, or quantity of people. I have been told - by a French speaker - that it is fine to say "J'en ai besoin de trois" as an alternative for "J'ai besoin de trois d'entre eux", that is "en" can be used here to represent "d'entre eux/of them", BUT that it is not OK to say J'en assiste à trois" as an alternative for "J'assiste à trois d'entre eux" where "en" again represents "of them". It seems that it is OK to use "en" with a verb which requires the preposition de, but that it is not OK to use "en" with a verb which uses the preposition à. Is this correct and if it is why is this so? Is there a grammatical reason for this or is it just down to common usage?

 

[Maître Capello]

The pronoun must be consistent with the verb construction:

• avoir besoin de qqch → en avoir besoin
• assister à qqch → y assister

J'ai besoin de trois X
→ J'ai besoin de trois d'entre eux/elles.
→ J'en ai besoin.
→ J'en ai besoin de trois. () (slightly sloppy because of the redundant de's, one being included in pronoun en)

J'assiste à trois X
→ J'assiste à trois d'entre eux/elles.
→ J'y assiste.
→ J'en assiste à trois. (en cannot replace d'entre eux/elles; it can only replace the indirect object)

 

[olivier68]

@phildavies The use of "en" is so complex... difficult to give explicit, general and short answers.

 

[phildavies]

Thanks a lot for your reply.

Yes I understand your definitions and the use of en and y replacing de qqch and à qqch in prepositional verbs. But in J'en ai besoin de trois you have replaced d'entre eux with en and in doing that you have replaced part of a direct object with en, which you say you cannot do in J'en assiste à trois. I don't understand this inconsistency. As I see it in both cases en is replacing d'entre eux and not de trois or à trois which remain with the correct pronouns as required by the verb. It doesn't seem much different to me than replacing Je mange trois d'entre eux with J'en mange trois. Its just that with the prepositional verbs you have de trois and à trois instead of trois. Is it possible to explain this inconsistency?

 

[OLN]

J'en ai besoin de trois. (thumbsup)(slightly sloppy because of the redundant de's, one being included in pronoun en)

Plus que "slightly", puisqu'on peut le replacer par Il m'en faut trois.

 

[Oddmania]

I think the problem is that the pronoun y really is needed with prepositional verb that take the preposition à, but you cannot use both en and à.
It might be easier to understand with a simpler example. Take the verb aller for instance:

Je vais à la bibliothèque ("I'm going to the library") → J'y vais ("I'm going there") ​

Je vais à trois concerts en juillet ("I'll be going to three concerts in July") → J'y en vais à trois ​

The only options I can think of that sound right are:

• using ...trois d'entre eux, although I don't think it sounds very natural in all situations.
• repeating the noun concerts (or use a simpler version of the noun if the noun is somewhat long, compound or has several adjectives).
• turning the indefinite noun ("trois concerts") into a definite noun ("les trois concerts"), which makes it possible to do without any pronoun:

Je vais aux trois (aux = à + les). ​

(This implies you're talking about something definite and not just random or undefined things).​

 

[phildavies]

Thanks to all who have replied.

I do understand that J'en assiste à trois is not acceptable and that I should use J'asssite à trois d'entre eux instead. What I still don't understand is the reason why! I guess I just have to accept it.

Thanks for all your help anyway!

 

[Maître Capello]

What I still don't understand is the reason why!

What you must understand is that en may not refer to just any complement introduced by preposition de.

There are two main uses of pronoun en:

1. Indirect object introduced by preposition de.
   J'ai besoin de la clef {avoir besoin de qqch, indirect construction} → J'en ai besoin {where en stands for de la clef}
2. Partitive complement (as or in a direct object).
   J'ai de la farine {avoir qqch, direct construction} → J'en ai {where en stands for de la farine}
   J'ai trois pommes {avoir qqch, direct construction} → J'en ai trois {where en stands for pommes and is the complement of trois (trois de ces pommes)}

You cannot use the partitive complement construction with an indirect object (whether the preposition required by the verb is de or à). It may be used only with a direct object.

Je veux trois pommes {direct object, no preposition} → J'en veux trois
J'ai besoin de trois pommes {indirect object, preposition} → J'en ai besoin {en stands for the whole indirect object complement}
J'ai besoin de trois pommes {indirect object, preposition} → J'en en ai besoin trois / J'en ai besoin de trois

J'ai regardé trois concerts {direct object, no preposition} → J'en ai regardé trois
J'ai assisté à trois concerts {indirect object, preposition} → J'y ai assisté {y stands for the whole indirect object complement}
J'ai assisté à trois concerts {indirect object, preposition} → J'y en ai assisté trois / J'en ai assisté à trois

But:
J'ai assisté trois ministres {direct object, no preposition} → J'en ai assisté trois
J'ai assisté trois ministres au conseil → J'y en ai assisté trois

 

[ForeverHis]

I have been told - by a French speaker - that it is fine to say "J'en ai besoin de trois" as an alternative for "J'ai besoin de trois d'entre eux", that is "en" can be used here to represent "d'entre eux/of them"

As Maître Capello explained so nicely, "en" doesn't replace "d'entre eux." So your friend was mistaken.

The use of "en" is so complex... difficult to give explicit, general and short answers.

Exactly. The use of "y" and "en" are a wonderful features of the French language and well worth mastering. This native French teacher has a great lesson on the use of "en." I hope you study it. Here's her first piece of advice:

The first thing you need to memorize with EN is that it’s used (most of the time) to replace a nominal group starting with DE.

How to use the pronoun EN in French - Elsa French Teacher