FR: It is possible that I will change my opinion

[MelB]

I was working on a thought that I was trying to put into French, which is basically, in English:

"It is possible that I will change my opinion, get used to the carpet. We will see"

When I try to write this in French, the main thing that bothers me is that the phrase, "It is possible" seems to require the subjunctive, and actually the phrase covers both parts of my sentence--(1) that I will change my opinion, and (2) that I will accommodate myself to the carpet.

Thus, I would seemingly have to write it in French:

"C'est possible que je change mon avis, m'habitue au tapis. On verra." I would, therefore be using the present subjunctive in both parts of the sentence.

(And in translating it back, the context should seemingly permit a future tense translation. Therefore, I could translate this usage (involving the subjunctive) back into English, using a future tense, "It is possible that I will change my opinon, will get used to the rug.")

If the context/sentence in English that I am trying to translate into French seems to call for the future tense, do I have any flexibility to just ignore the subjunctive, and simply use the future tense like this?--

"C'est possible que je changerai mon avis, m'habituerai au tapis. On verra."

While I'm thinking the answer is "no," I thought I'd ask for a confirmation in this forum.

 

[Gil]

Désolé. Je confirme que tu devras apprendre à utiliser le subjonctif.
Le construction que je favoriserais dans ce cas:
"Il se peut que je change d'avis et que je m'habitue au tapis. On verra."

 

[MelB]

Is there any reason why you prefer, "Il se peut" over "C'est possible"? They seem to mean the same thing, though I suppose "Il se peut" is a little shorter (three syllables instead of four).

I understand now that "change d'avis" is an expression, term of art, so that sounds fine with me.

 

[Gil]

Is there any reason why you prefer, "Il se peut" over "C'est possible"? They seem to mean the same thing, though I suppose "Il se peut" is a little shorter (three syllables instead of four).

I think they mean the same thing. "Il se peut" is a bit more litterary, something that I would write, and "C'est possible" is what I would say in a conversation.

But you are rignt: I like concision when I write.

 

[elroy]

Wouldn't it be possible to use the future if you were to say c'est possible que?

 

[Gil]

Wouldn't it be possible to use the future if you were to say c'est possible que?

I do not think so. If you do a Google search with "c'est possible que" you will find subjunctives. I did not check all grammar rules, I have to go to bed.

 

[elroy]

I do not think so. If you do a Google search with "c'est possible que" you will find subjunctives. I did not check all grammar rules, I have to go to bed.

Perhaps I'm thinking of quand, which does permit the future.

You're probably right. Don't mind me.

 

[Starcreator]

I always used to wonder about this.

I have heard before structures like "Je suis parti avant qu'il n'arrive" and I thought that it should have been "avant qu'il ne soit arrivé". It seems that the present subjunctive is used regardless of the antecedent tense as it is implied that the action will take place in the past, future, etc. The exception to this is of course the subjonctif imparfait - il fallait que l'on fût prudent.

Star

 

[river]

"It is possible" does require the subjunctive: "It is possible that I will change my mind."

 

[pieanne]

Starcreator,
both are correct, yet "avant qu'il ne soit arrivé" isn't much used in everyday French.
I think that the reasoning is exactly the same for both, though. "Avant qu'il n'arrive" is subjunctive for "arriver". This is about an action, "arriver".
"Avant qu'il ne soit arrivé" is about a state, the state of being there, "arrivé", and you have the subjunctive of "être", "arrivé" being the predicate.

 

[Gil]

Le subjonctif s'emploie avec des verbes qui expriment:
POSSIBILITÉ, IMPOSSIBILITÉ, PROBABILITÉ, DOUTE, INCERTITUDE
Exemples:
il est probable que/qu' …
il est peu probable que/qu' …
je ne suis pas sûr que/qu' …
il est fort probable que/qu' ...
il n'est pas certain que/qu' ...
Il est peu probable qu'ils vendent à ce prix-là
Il est possible qu'ils viennent nous visiter
Je ne suis pas sûr qu'il puisse venir
Il n'est pas certain qu'elles soient arrivés hier.

Source : ici

 

[LV4-26]

There's no perceptible difference of meaning between
Je suis parti avant qu'il n'arrive
Je suis parti avant qu'il ne soit arrivé
So it's best to use the less heavy version (i.e. the first one)

MelB, maybe you can use "peut-être" as an alternative.
Je vais peut-être changer d'avis....

Now, come to that, it's for me to ask a question :Why do you prefer
It is possible that I will change my opinion to
I may change my opinion
Is there such a big difference ?
I would always go for the lighter version but then I'm not a native English speaker so I need you to shed some light on this issue.

 

[MelB]

Gil, "c'est possible que je n'utiliserai pas le subjonctif."

Puis, j'aurai tort.

Ainsi, malheureusement avec la phrase en question, "ce n'est pas possible que je n'utilise pas le subjonctif." Esc-ce-que la negatif avec cette phrase change la règlement?

Je veux dire, si une chose n'est pas possible, puis c'est certaine (et suggérerait l'indicatif." Peut-être avec cette idée, puit-on dire,"ce n'est pas possible que je n'utiliserai pas le subjonctif" avec ma phrase originale.

* * *

Vous avez suggéré, "Il se peut que je change d'avis et que je m'habitue au tapis. On verra." J'aime ça.

Merci pour votr'aide. Quand je ne suis pas trop paresseux, je recherche aussic avec Google. (J'ai pensé que j'étais la seule personne, qui savais ce truc, que c'était ma découverte). Avec Google, je peux avoir une sondage d'opinion, fondé sur l'usage littéraire des gens, et il m'aide savoir si une phrase que je veux écrire est correct. Parfois, l'usage est divisé entre mes deux choix. Puis, je dois jeter en l'air une pièce de monnaie, si pile, je fais ci, face, je fais là.

Merci en avance pour votre avis (tout le monde ici) sur la negatif avec "C'est possible," et si ça changera la reglèment. Puis-je utiliserer le temps futur simple, avec la phrase, "ce n'est pas possible" parce que avec ça, j'exprime une chose certaine?

 

[MelB]

LV4-26,

I think the subjuctive is better than your suggestion, which was: "Je vais peut-être changer d'avis...." I don't mind using the subjunctive. I was just trying to make sure I understood the rule here. There's a subtle difference, but I prefer in the context of what I want to say, that "I may change my opinion in the future," (uncertainty there) not the "I am going perhaps to change my opinion in the future." The latter is stronger in suggesting a possible change.

Also, if you have any thoughts on my previous post in this thread about using the negative with "it is possible," please let me know. In other words, if I say, "It is not possible that . . ." would that introductory phrase necessitate still the subjunctive, or can I then use the indicative. My Grammar Treatise seems unclear on it, and has so many pages and footnotes it makes me dizzy. I was thinking that since "it is not possible" seems to suggest certainty, that then I'm more in the indicative area, but wasn't sure if the phrase itself, "c'est possible" or "il se peut" required subjunctive whether expressed in the positive or in the negative.

 

[Markus]

Uh oh. I'm suddenly all confused after reading Gil's post. I learned to use the indicative for probability and the subjunctive for possibility. My French teacher taught us the 50% rule: If the chances of the event occurring are greater than 50%, use the indicative. Thus the following phrases would be correct:

Il est possible que j'y aille.
Il est probable que j'y irai.
Il n'est pas probable que j'y aille.
Il est certain que j'y irai.

However Gil's source states that probability is also classified under the subjunctive! Can I hear some opinions on this issue? Is it not so clear-cut as I learned or is what I learned just plain wrong? Thanks!

 

[MelB]

I'm looking at Byrne and Churchill's A Comprehensive French Grammar, 4th Ed.

Section 483 (d) seems to use the indicative with probable. In that regard, it gives as an example: "Est-il vrai que vous soyez malade? 'Is is true that you are ill?'--but the text goes on to give as an example, "Il est probable, certain, vrai que mon père a reçu la lettre." It definitely says that one should use the subjunctive with it is little probable "peu probable." It also uses the subjunctive with "it is not probable."

It doesn't seem to address my question, but I would think, "it is not posssible" would certainly require the indicative (at least as Gil describes his 50 percent rule) (if it's not possible, we're talking about 100 percent), and not the subjunctive. All I'm asking for is a confirmation here on that.

 

[LV4-26]

You should use the subjunctive with
il n'est pas possible que...
the same way as with "il est possible que"
Which is perfectly consistent with the mentioned rule as the chances of the event occurring (the "I-will-change-my-opinion" event) are....0 %.

There's a subtle difference, but I prefer in the context of what I want to say, that "I may change my opinion in the future," (uncertainty there) not the "I am going perhaps to change my opinion in the future." The latter is stronger in suggesting a possible change.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, MelB. In any case I thought I should make it clear that :
Je vais peut-être changer d'avis
conveys exactly the same idea as
I may change my opinion.

 

[Gil]

I'm looking at Byrne and Churchill's A Comprehensive French Grammar, 4th Ed.

Section 483 (d) seems to use the indicative with probable. In that regard, it gives as an example: "Est-il vrai que vous soyez malade? 'Is is true that you are ill?'--but the text goes on to give as an example, "Il est probable, certain, vrai que mon père a reçu la lettre." It definitely says that one should use the subjunctive with it is little probable "peu probable." It also uses the subjunctive with "it is not probable."

It doesn't seem to address my question, but I would think, "it is not posssible" would certainly require the indicative (at least as Gil describes his 50 percent rule) (if it's not possible, we're talking about 100 percent), and not the subjunctive. All I'm asking for is a confirmation here on that.

I would still go for the subjunctive...
Le subjonctif s'emploie avec des verbes qui expriment:
POSSIBILITÉ, IMPOSSIBILITÉ, PROBABILITÉ, DOUTE, INCERTITUDE

 

[MelB]

LV4-26,

There are two possibilities raised:

(1) "C'est possible que je change d'avis

and (2) Je vais peut-être changer d'avis

You say they mean exactly the same thing in French. And they may. My problem is I'm an Anglophone, and can't help translating them.

No. 1 to me says, "It's possible I'll change opinion."

No. 2 says, "I'm going, perhaps, to change opinion."

It's a nuance, but the second characterization is not the same as the first in English. It's more affirmative in the direction of changing opinion. It's not just that it's "possible." In English we sometimes use the word "possible" to mean less than a 50 percent chance, when we're comparing this word with the word "probable." (Please keep in mind though that if something has a 90 percent change of happening, it's still "possible" it will happen, though the better word to use there would be "probable," as we would tend to use "probable" to mean more than a 50 percent change).

In any event, the second characterization ("I'm going, perhaps, to change opinion"), is more assumptive/affirmative. I mean why would someone say that, if he weren't tending in the direction of changing opinion.

If I were to list the three characterizations here in English:

(1) It's possible I will change opinion (taking that sometimes English meaning of less than a 50 percent chance, when "possible is compared to the word "probable")

(2) It's probable I will change opinion (greater than 50 percent chance)

and (3) I'm going, perhaps, to change opinion,

I would say that the third characterization is closer to the second than the first (because of the assumptive, affirmative way it is stated).

And it's because of the above, that I have a hard time feeling that "C'est possible que je change d'avis" is the same as "Je vais peut-être changer d'avis." I would think the second characterization in French ("Je vais peut-être changer d'avis") is closer to a probability of changing opinions than the first characterization (C'est possible que je change d'avis).

 

[MelB]

Gil and LV4-26

Thanks. I finally found it in my treatise, Section 484. When the reality of the event is denied, one takes the subjunctive, and they give as an example, "il n'est pas possible que . . ."

But Gil, you just said the subjunctive goes with verbs that express probability. That's Markus' issue, and mine too. Because my treatise by Byrne and Churchill "(which I've cited in this thread already) says you use the indicative there, and gives an example. And see item 5 for this French Grammar link, which says the same. It lists as taking the indicative, "il est probable que."

http://www.realfrench.net/grammar/unit.php?id=22

 

[timpeac]

Markus - I am very confused too by this. I have started a new thread on the topic on whether you should have subj after probability or not.

 

[LV4-26]

Agreed, Melb.
Je vais peut-être changer d'avis is indeed more affirmative than
Il se peut que je change d'avis.