FR: l'orange, de l'orange / le orange, du orange - élision ou disjonction ?

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  • Liototo45

    New Member
    Français
    Hey Pasiphae,

    Nop, in spoken french, you'll eat the "e" and say "l'orange", like: "ma couleur préférée est l'orange" (my favourite color is orange).
    If you want to describe sthg though, you'll use "le/la", like "le bus orange", "le manteau orange", "la couleur orange"...
     

    Pasiphae II

    Member
    USA
    English
    Merci beaucoup, Liototo45!

    I saw the sentence written: "J'adore le orange." And then I thought I heard it spoken with a very slight pause between the "le" and the "orange." I knew there was a liaison between "je" and "adore" but wasn't sure about "le" with "orange" because of its being written without the liaison. [This is, of course, in reference to the color and not the fruit.] By the way, it was in a French text!
     

    Maître Capello

    Mod et ratures
    French – Switzerland
    J'adore le orange is indeed sometimes heard colloquially, but it is actually incorrect. You should definitely say/write J'adore l'orange.

    By the way, this is not a liaison but an elision. ;)
     

    Liototo45

    New Member
    Français
    Sure, you can write 'J'adore le orange"... But, according to me, you don't say it orally, even if it is totally understandable. It seems more spontaneous or younger ;)
     

    Maître Capello

    Mod et ratures
    French – Switzerland

    CapnPrep

    Senior Member
    AmE
    Le orange sounds pretty bad, but there are examples where the absence of elision/liaison sounds OK to me, e.g. Il porte toujours du orange or Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il me faut des oranges (without liaison).
     

    Liototo45

    New Member
    Français
    Yes, it's true, you don't say "le orange" whether written or spoken. I'm very sorry about that.

    Hmmmm, I'm strongly loosing my French...
    Mea Culpa

    :D
     

    JeanDeSponde

    Senior Member
    France, Français
    Yes, it's true, you don't say "le orange" whether written or spoken. I'm very sorry about that.
    Well - it's just like c'est pas correct: ce n'est pas correct, yet you'll hear / read it very often.
    I agree with CapPrep, in many cases I'll tend to say rajoute du orange ; je prendrai le orange.
    Les couleurs chaudes comme le jaune, le orange ou le rouge sont éclatantes et s'intègrent bien dans un grand jardin ou un massif éloigné.
    (Philippe Collignon, Le jardin)
    Curiously enough, I wouldn't say so with other colours such as argent, ocre, indigo etc.
     

    Maître Capello

    Mod et ratures
    French – Switzerland
    there are examples where the absence of elision/liaison sounds OK to me, e.g. Il porte toujours du orange or Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il me faut des oranges (without liaison).
    There may be two reasons for this:
    1. Most common color names start with a consonant and hence are written with du (e.g., du jaune, du rouge, du vert, etc.).
    2. To avoid the confusion with the fruit, which is always pronounced l'orange and les oranges (with liaison), the disjunction might be preferred by some.
     

    TSR

    Senior Member
    I have rarely come across "l'orange" when it's not the fruit. I know that it is not incorrect when you mention the colour. However, I would never take any risk. "L'orange" might be confusing. This is the only case in which, in French, I would avoid the official phonetic rule!
     

    Nanon

    Senior Member
    français (France)
    Le orange sounds pretty bad, but there are examples where the absence of elision/liaison sounds OK to me, e.g. Il porte toujours du orange or Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il me faut des oranges (without liaison).
    Eight years later... I disagree, sorry.
    • Il porte toujours du orange does not sound OK to many ears, including mine. It is frequently used, though. The reason may be an analogy with the most frequent colours, as explained above (du rouge, du vert, du bleu, du blanc...). However, saying du orange creates an exception to the rule. Would you say *du indigo, du ivoire, du azur, du or, du abricot, du acajou...? If the answer is no, saying du orange creates an exception to the rule. Instead of simplifying the rule [de + le + initial vowel <=> du], it makes it more complex :p [de + le + vowel <=> du except for "orange"]. The same goes for au orange: would you say *l'arc-en-ciel va du rouge au indigo?
    • The second sentence should read Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il m'en faut des orange (without liaison indeed, but orange is invariant when used as a colour adjective).
     

    Bezoard

    Senior Member
    French - France
    The second sentence should read Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il m'en faut des orange (without liaison indeed, but orange is invariant when used as a colour adjective).
    Why without liaison ? Since you tend to do the liaison in other circumstances and do not like exceptions, why not here ?
    Wouldn't you do the liaison in : J'ai des chaussettes neuves mais il m'en faut desᴗanciennes pour aller dans le jardin.
     

    Nanon

    Senior Member
    français (France)
    Why without liaison ? Since you tend to do the liaison in other circumstances and do not like exceptions, why not here ?
    As stated above, not to create confusion with desᴗoranges (fruit) - there's no more than that.
    I say desᴗanciennes but, with colour adjectives coming from nouns, I say des orange, des ivoire, des indigo. And I daresay it's not just me.
    Please do not think that I am getting personal about exceptions. I have previous experience as a teacher of French as a foreign language and as such, I tend to start by teaching standard language first, then exploring other variants, depending on learners' levels of proficiency, needs and preferences. I don't dislike exceptions - but the less exceptions you have, the easier it is to apply a rule...
     

    Bezoard

    Senior Member
    French - France
    As stated above, not to create confusion with desᴗoranges (fruit) - there's no more than that.
    Although in the context of " Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il m'en faut des orange", the confusion with the fruit seems unlikely !
    So that's the same reason alleged by those who say "au orange, du orange" instead of "à l'orange, de l'orange" ; but nevertheless you do not say "au orange", and accept the risk of creating confusion! Sorry, Nanon, if I seem to be nitpicking, but I try to understand whether there is a consistent logic behind our speaking choices and habits.
     

    Nanon

    Senior Member
    français (France)
    Sorry, confusion with what? There is no masculine fruit named orange.
    I will continue following the existing rules and not saying "au orange". And sorry again, but I am done with this topic.
     
    • Agree
    Reactions: OLN

    Bezoard

    Senior Member
    French - France
    When you hear "à l'orange, de l'orange", you cannot say whether the fruit or the color is concerned (except by the context, of course)
     
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    jekoh

    Senior Member
    Fr - Fr
    I will continue following the existing rules and not saying "au orange".
    You're not really following them though. I mean, the rules that say "le orange" is incorrect also make the liaison mandatory.

    See Le orange pour l'orange | Académie française
    Un nom est particulièrement touché aujourd’hui : orange. Il ne s’agit pas du fruit ; on dit sans problème l’orange est sucrée, mais les choses se gâtent quand on parle de la couleur, puisque, même si l’on dit généralement je vous jure, monsieur l’agent, je suis passé à l’orange, on entend et on lit fréquemment le orange, du orange. Rappelons que le nom du fruit et celui de la couleur ont la même prononciation et bannissons cet inélégant hiatus.
     
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    StefKE

    Senior Member
    French - Belgium
    I can hardly think of a situation where you wouldn't be able to distinguish between the fruit and the colour. And in that case, I would be more likely to clarify the situation by saying "de l'orange, la couleur, pas le fruit" than to say "du orange", which sounds very wrong to me as well.

    The same goes for "des orange" without the liaison. Besides, the construction of the sentence does not allow for any confusion: if you say "Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il me faut des oranges", you're talking about the fruit (and the sentence does not make a lot of sense); if you say "Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il m'en faut des orange", you're talking about the colour of the socks.
     

    Maître Capello

    Mod et ratures
    French – Switzerland
    The color orange (unlike the fruit) tends nowadays to behave like onze where the article doesn't elide or trigger the liaison, i.e., you hear more and more often le/du/au orange and les/des/aux | oranges (without liaison) instead of the standard l'/de l'/à l'orange and les/des/aux‿oranges (with liaison).

    As Bezoard pointed out, it is inconsistent to say l'orange on one side and les | oranges on the other. I however agree with Nanon that for some reason les | oranges doesn't sound as bad as le orange, which is really terrible…

    if you say "Ils ont des chaussettes rouges mais il me faut des oranges", you're talking about the fruit
    :confused: Dans cette phrase il est pourtant évident qu'il est question d'une autre couleur que le rouge et pas de fruits… On pourrait d'ailleurs très bien dire Ils ont des chaussettes rouges, mais il me faut des vertes. Le pronom en peut en effet très bien être omis ; nul besoin de dire il m'en faut des orange/vertes/etc.

    Aspect d'ailleurs intéressant des choses, on remarquera la différence d'accord de orange dans ces deux cas :
    1. Ils ont des chaussettes rouges, mais il me faut des oranges. ← Ici orange est un substantif et prend donc normalement la marque du pluriel.
    2. Ils ont des chaussettes rouges, mais il m'en faut des orange. ← Ici orange est un adjectif (qualifiant le pronom en) et reste donc invariable.
     

    Swatters

    Senior Member
    French - Belgium, some Wallo-Picard
    I don't think I've ever heard orange with disjunction before. There might be a regional component here.
     
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