FR: Nous le lui avons annoncé - accord du participe passé

[dontcallmeshirley]

The following is from an online resource. I'm confused by exactly what they mean by "representing a phrase or "having an answer to the question what". In both examples given it appears to me the "en" of the first and "le" of the second aren't different from direct object pronouns referring to "des fraises" and "les manifestations", respectively. I thought that when direct object pronouns are placed before the past particple they need to be in agreement with each other?

3.8 Le participe passé précédé de en, le, l’…

Le participe passé précédé de en, le, l’ représentant une phrase ou ayant comme réponse à la question quoi? de cela, reste toujours invariable.

J’ai cueilli des fraises et je lui en ai donné.

Je lui ai donné quoi ? De cela, de ces fraises, donc donné reste invariable.

Les manifestants sont arrivés : nous le lui avons annoncé.

Nous lui avons annoncé quoi ?

 

[Yendred]

" en, le, l' " peuvent être des pronoms qui représentent (remplacent) une phrase :
J’ai cueilli des fraises et je lui en ai donné.
(en = "des fraises que j'ai cueillies")
Les manifestants sont arrivés : nous le lui avons annoncé
(le = "que les manifestants sont arrivés")

Ces pronoms peuvent aussi remplacer la réponse "de cela" à la question "quoi ?" :
Je lui en ai donné.
(Je lui ai donné quoi ? Réponse : Je lui ai donné de cela)

Dans tous ces cas, le participe passé reste invariable.

 

[jekoh]

"le" is indeed the direct object but it is singular and therefore can not refer to "les manifestants" (plural). The past participle does agree with the direct object.

 

[Maître Capello]

I thought that when direct object pronouns are placed before the past particple they need to be in agreement with each other?

The pronoun en is an exception to this rule because it is usually considered neuter even though it may refer to a feminine and/or plural noun. For more details, see the following thread:

FR: accord du participe passé avec "en" / past participle agreement with "en"

 

[dontcallmeshirley]

Ces pronoms peuvent aussi remplacer la réponse "de cela" à la question "quoi ?" :
Je lui en ai donné.
(Je lui ai donné quoi ? Réponse : Je lui ai donné de cela)

De cela = "of that"?

"I gave him of that" - this doesn't make sense to me. Can someone explain what the nuance is between answering with "quoi" vs "de cela"?

"le" is indeed the direct object but it is singular and therefore can not refer to "les manifestants" (plural). The past participle does agree with the direct object.

It says it doesn't agree though, because it remains invariable. I guess when these pronouns replace phrases rather than nouns, they don't require the agreement. I honestly find Russian grammar easier than French.

 

[Yendred]

De cela = "of that"?

"I gave him of that"

I gave him some of that

 

[jekoh]

We're saying the same thing differently : there is no difference between "not requiring agreement" and "requiring agreement in the masculine singular".

Making it sound like it's an exception to the general rule is unnecessarily complicated.

Nous le lui avons annoncé.
Nous la lui avons annoncée.
Nous les lui avons annoncés. (masc plural)
Nous les lui avons annoncées. (fem plural)

Clearly it does agree, regardless of whether the direct object pronoun stands for a noun or a phrase.

 

[Maître Capello]

Making it sound like it's an exception to the general rule is unnecessarily complicated.

There is indeed no exception for pronoun le, regardless of what le stands for, but there is one for pronoun en.

 

[dontcallmeshirley]

We're saying the same thing differently : there is no difference between "not requiring agreement" and "requiring agreement in the masculine singular".

Making it sound like it's an exception to the general rule is unnecessarily complicated.

Nous le lui avons annoncé.
Nous la lui avons annoncée.
Nous les lui avons annoncés. (masc plural)
Nous les lui avons annoncées. (fem plural)

Clearly it does agree, regardless of whether the direct object pronoun stands for a noun or a phrase.

Hmm, but the source goes on to say: Le, mis pour la phrase « que les manifestants étaient arrivés », donc annoncé reste invariable.

I think I'm confused by which direct object pronouns can replace a phrase rather than a noun. Is it correct to say only « le, l' and en » can replace a phrase - i.e a feminine article cannot replace a phrase even when the noun of the phrase is feminine? Thank you in advance.

 

[Yendred]

Is it correct to say only « le, l' and en » can replace a phrase - i.e a feminine article cannot replace a phrase even when the noun of the phrase is feminine?

Exactly For instance:

Phrase with a singular feminine noun:
Sa mère est arrivée : nous le lui avons annoncé.
(= nous lui avons annoncé que sa mère est arrivée)

Phrase with a plural feminine noun:
Ses soeurs sont arrivées : nous le lui avons annoncé.
(= nous lui avons annoncé que ses soeurs sont arrivées)

 

[Maître Capello]

L' is just the elided version of le (or la*) before a vowel or a mute h. Here is an example:

Sa mère est arrivée ; nous l'avons annoncé à Marc.​

Nous avons annoncé à Marc que sa mère était arrivée.​

As to en, here is an example where it replaces a phrase:

Sa mère est arrivée à deux heures ; je m'en souviens très bien.​

Je me souviens très bien que sa mère est arrivée à deux heures.​

You may think of it as: Je me souviens très bien du fait que sa mère est arrivée à deux heures.

* Note: L' can be the elided version of la only if it refers to a noun, never to a phrase. When it replaces a phrase, it is necessarily pronoun le. The past participle agreement is therefore always in the masculine singular in that case.

 

[jekoh]

a feminine article pronoun cannot replace a phrase even when the noun of the phrase is feminine?

Exactly like in English :
Their sister arrived, we told it to them. (not we told her to them).

 

[Maître Capello]

Yes, except in English it is usually more idiomatic not to include a pronoun: Their sister had arrived, we told them.

 

[jekoh]

Well, in French it is also idiomatic to include just one pronoun : nous lui avons annoncé. It must have been years since I heard anyone say "le lui".