FR: nous les avons vus arriver

[Daruki]

I'm still pretty confused about the agreement of past participles in percetion verbs, such as voir or entendre
For example:
1) Nous avons vu les enfants arriver par l'autobus.
----> Nous les avons vus arriver par l'autobus.

BUT...

2) La chat a senti caresser sa tête.
----> La chat l'a senti caresser.

There isn't agreement for the past participle in this case.

The only good rule I've come up with is this:
1) If the object is doing the infinitive verb's action directly, such as the case with the children arriving, then you agree.
2) If the object is doing the infinitive verb's action indirectly, meaning the object is allowing something to be done on it, then you don't agree.

If such is the case, then for the following:

1) Nous avons vu jouer la scène finale
----> Nous l'avons vue jouer?

 

[jann]

You may find post #6 in this thread helpful.

 

[TRADLADY]

En fait je trouve que la phrase "Le chat a senti caresser sa tête" est assez bizarre.. Je dirais plutôt "Le chat a senti qu'on lui caressait la tête" ou "Le chat a senti une main caresser sa tête".

"Le chat l'a senti caresser" ne sonne pas français.

Je vous recommande de thread indiqué par jann qui est bien expliqué.

 

[Lacuzon]

Hi,

The only good rule I've come up with is this:
1) If the object is doing the infinitive verb's action directly, such as the case with the children arriving, then you agree.
2) If the object is doing the infinitive verb's action indirectly, meaning the object is allowing something to be done on it, then you don't agree.

If such is the case, then for the following:

1) Nous avons vu jouer la scène finale
----> Nous l'avons vue jouer?

According to what you have written

If the object is doing the infinitive verb's action indirectly, meaning the object is allowing something to be done on it, then you don't agree

It has to be : Nous l'avons vu jouer just because the final act is not playing, it is played

Nous l'avons vue jouer means that you saw a female actor playing the final act.

La scène finale, nous l'avons vu jouer (par l'actrice).
L'actrice, nous l'avons vue jouer la scène finale.

Clearer?

 

[Daruki]

Hi,



According to what you have written
It has to be : Nous l'avons vu jouer just because the final act is not playing, it is played

Nous l'avons vue jouer means that you saw a female actor playing the final act.

La scène finale, nous l'avons vu jouer (par l'actrice).
L'actrice, nous l'avons vue jouer la scène finale.

Clearer?

Yeah I get that. However the question "Nous avons vu jouer la scène finale" was on a test, and I interpreted it as the scene was playing itself. In that sense, "la scène finale" is using the verb jouer like pronominal verbs.

And the post jann linked kind of helped but i'm still unclear on the rules. Aren't there a clear set of rules?

 

[Lacuzon]

Hi,

If the scene was playing itself it would be nous avons vu se jouer la scène finale.