FR: verbe transitif indirect

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juninho8

Senior Member
united kingdom - english
i'm reading a french dictionary to find out about what prepositions are required if any and could you answer my question please.

if a verb doesn't say "verbe transitif indirect" does that mean it doesn't need a preposition so i could use direct object pronouns?

thanks
 
  • Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    You can use direct object pronouns with any verb that is labelled verbe transitif direct. But beware that some verbs can be ditransitive: transitif direct et indirect.
     

    jann

    co-mod'
    English - USA
    A transitive verb takes an object. You don't know if that object is direct or indirect, unless it is specified. In your case, it is specified: the type of object that you need is an indirect one (so no, you can't use a direct object or direct object pronouns unless another part of the dictionary entry indicates that this particular verb can also take a direct object).

    Since indirect objects are generally introduced by a preposition, you will probably find the appropriate preposition listed with the verb or in the example sentences.

    Does that help? If you're still unsure, it might help if you could give us the verb in question... :)

    EDIT: We posted at the same time! :p I don't understand when you say: but if it says "verbe transitif indirect" lui leur?
    This doesn't look like a normal dictionary entry. Could you give us the verb your are talking about, and type out this part of the entry exactly the way it appears?
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    yeah like sometimes a verb can not use a preposition and mean onething but have one and mean another.
    I'm afraid I do not follow you. Here's what a direct and indirect transitive verb looks like:

    I gave Jill a rose.

    The verb "to give" has two objects, "Jill" and "a rose". The rose is what is given, so it is the direct object. Jill is the recipient of the gift, so she is the indirect object. You really need to understand the two concepts in order to apply them.
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    From a student's perspective, I would say it's better to memorize this one verb at a time (meaning will often be a good clue). And think of the prepositions as part of the verb itself: not aller, but aller à; not donner, but donner [qqch] à [qqn]. This is probably how you think of verbs in English, too, if you think about it.

    About pronouns, let's go back to the sentence I wrote above:

    J'ai donné la rose à Jeanne. = Je l'ai [= le + ai] donné à Jeanne. [dir. obj.] = Je lui ai donné la rose. [ind. obj.]
     

    juninho8

    Senior Member
    united kingdom - english
    i've only just started reading about intransitif transitif verbs, indirect, direct but basically i want to know when à or de is required before a noun. and also which verbs are indirect so i know when to use indirect object pronouns

    "We posted at the same time! :p I don't understand when you say: but if it says "verbe transitif indirect" lui leur?
    This doesn't look like a normal dictionary entry. Could you give us the verb your are talking about, and type out this part of the entry exactly the way it appears?"
    sorry i was not very clear with this. what i meant to say was that if the verb has "verbe transitif indirect" and the preposition is à could i use lui or leur.

    thanks
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    i've only just started reading about intransitif transitif verbs, indirect, direct but basically i want to know when à or de is required before a noun. and also which verbs are indirect so i know when to use indirect object pronouns
    Sometimes the meaning of the verb will give you a clue (like in the example of "to give"), but often you will just have to memorize the preposition. This is no different that in English, by the way.

    The preposition de has no connection with transitivity, that I know. It often appears between two verbs, especially when the second verb is in the infinitive.

    sorry i was not very clear with this. what i meant to say was that if the verb has "verbe transitif indirect" and the preposition is à could i use lui or leur.
    Yes, see the example I gave above.
     

    jann

    co-mod'
    English - USA
    if the verb has "verbe transitif indirect" and the preposition is à could i use lui or leur.
    Correct. :) But these are not the only indirect object pronouns you could use, because me, te, nous, and vous can also be indirect object pronouns. Keep reading...
    In French, we "telephone to someone" (we do not "telephone someone"). You can tell this from the dictionary, because when you look up téléphoner and read through the entry, it says:
    Empl. trans. indir.
    a) Téléphoner à qqn. Se mettre en communication téléphonique avec quelqu'un.
    The person who receives the call is the indirect object as indicated by the preposition à, so you must use an indirect object pronoun if you want to use a pronoun at all. "Lui" and "leur" are both indirect object pronouns (so are me, te, nous, and vous).
    I telephoned "to" Jenny. >> J'ai téléphone à Jenny.
    I telephoned "to" her. >> Je lui ai téléphoné.
    I telephoned "to" Jenny and John >> J'ai téléphone à Jenny et à John.
    I telephoned "to" them >> Je leur ai téléphoné.
    Jenny telephoned "to" me. >> Jenny m'a téléphoné.
    Jenny telephoned "to" you all >> Jenny vous a téléphoné.
    etc.

    sometimes a verb can not use a preposition and mean one thing but have one and mean another.
    This is also true. A good number of verbs have intransitive and transitive forms both. For example, "to work" - travailler. You will find entries for both forms:
    v.i. travailler = to work, to exercise a professional activity.
    He works in a factory. Il travaille dans une usine.
    His wife works too. Sa femme travaille elle aussi.
    Don't work too much! Ne travaille pas trop !
    v.tr. direct travailler [+quelque chose] = to fashion, to shape, to cultivate, to improve [+something]
    She kneads/works the bread dough. Elle travaille la pâte.
    He practices/improves his English skills. Il travaille son anglais.
    v.tr. indirect - travailler à [+projet, cause, ou infinitif] = to work on/towards, to devote effort to
    He is working on (working to finish) an article. Il travaille à un article
    She is working on perfecting her English. Elle travaille à perfectionner son anglais.

    Does that help at all?
     

    beaujohn

    Banned
    English
    Maybe I'm missing something, but in this thread I can't find a definition of Transitive Indirect Verb.

    Is this correct?:
    A transitive indirect verb has either à or de before its object.
    • Elle parle à lui.
     
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    Maître Capello

    Mod et ratures
    French – Switzerland
    Is this correct?:
    A transitive indirect verb has either à or de before its object.
    • Elle parle à lui.
    No, not necessarily, e.g., Elle lui parle stands for Elle parle à cette personne. (Elle parle à lui. :cross:) Hence the preposition may not be explicit because it may already be included in the pronoun (here: lui).

    At any rate, a possible definition of a transitive indirect verb is a verb that takes an object preceded by a preposition (possibly combined with that object).
     
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    Soliter

    New Member
    Français-France
    I am sorry, but in this case I think that Elle parle à cette personne, cette personne is not the indirect complement but what we call in French complément d'objet second (COS) ou complément d'attribution.
    For the verb "to talk about" = parler de, it is transitive indirect but it can be intransitive Je parle. = I am talking.
    About the verb "to talk to" = parler à, it is intransitive (Je parle à Marie.) or transitive direct (Je parle Anglais à Marie).
    You see, parler can be transitive direct (no préposition): Je parle Anglais.


    Some other verbs that can be either transitive or intransitive :
    arrêter, brûler, commencer, fuir, vaincre, servir, rougir, rompre, siffler, glisser, retarder, veiller, manger...
     
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    beaujohn

    Banned
    English
    Many thanks Soliter, super helpful.
    I wonder if someone could supply me with a definition, in English, of transitive indirect. The only one I've found is
    • A Transitif Indirect verb acts to or for its object . .
    which is somewhat useful but a little vague :confused:
     

    Oddmania

    Senior Member
    French
    Many thanks Soliter, super helpful.
    I wonder if someone could supply me with a definition, in English, of transitive indirect. The only one I've found is
    • A Transitif Indirect verb acts to or for its object . .
    which is somewhat useful but a little vague :confused:
    Transitif

    With a complement (either a COD (without any preposition) or a COI (with a preposition))


    • Il évoque son enfance: transitif direct (COD).
    • Il se souvient de son enfance: transitif indirect (COI).

    (→ Examples from Wikipedia)

    Intransitif

    Never with a complement : courir, mourir, tomber, partir, etc...
     

    Maître Capello

    Mod et ratures
    French – Switzerland
    Let me clarify something. COS (complément d'objet second) is just another name for COI (complément d'objet indirect) when there is also a COD (complément d'objet direct), which is then itself called "objet premier." Thus, if there is no COD, an object with a preposition can't be a COS; it has to be a COI. By the way, some grammars don't even bother mentioning COS and just use COI in all cases where the object takes a preposition…

    Je parle. (intransitive, no object)
    Je parle le français. (COD)
    Je parle à Marie. (COI)
    Je parle anglais à Marie. (COD + COI/COS)

    Anyway, back to the definition of indirect transitive verbs, please refer to my previous post, which can be rephrased as follows:
    • A verb is indirect transitive if it takes an indirect object.
    • An indirect object is an object that is preceded by a preposition (especially à and de, but also sur, dans, en, avec, etc.), the preposition being possibly combined with the object in a single word when the object is a pronoun.
    Note: Many verbs such as parler can be intransitive, direct transitive, indirect transitive, or double transitive (taking both a direct and indirect object). One should therefore not say that a verb is indirect transitive, but that it can be indirect transitive, or that it is used in an indirect transitive way in some specific sentence.
     
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    Thomas1

    Senior Member
    polszczyzna warszawska
    Many thanks Soliter, super helpful.
    I wonder if someone could supply me with a definition, in English, of transitive indirect. The only one I've found is
    • A Transitif Indirect verb acts to or for its object . .
    which is somewhat useful but a little vague :confused:
    The above doesn't have to be so about English where nouns without prepositions can act as indirect objects (and this thread exemplifies it). So you may have to switch the definition of an intransitive verb depending on the language you have in mind. Here's a more general definition of an indirect object:

    The Indirect Object of a verb denotes that which is indirectly affected by an action, but is not the immediate object or product of it, as ‘Give him the book’, ‘Make me a coat’.
    Source
    Also, what is called 'complément indirect' in French and takes a preposition, in English, is very often called a 'prepositional object.'

    This object [as in 'he longed for rest'--Thomas] is traditionally called 'the prepositional object' ; it appears, however, that it would be more correct to call it a 'direct object dependent on a prepositional group- verb'1.
    [...]
    1 Other terms for ‘prepositional group-verbs’ are ‘phrasal verbs’‥‘group verbs’‥‘compound verbs’.
    Source
    My italics and [].
     

    radagasty

    Senior Member
    Australia, Cantonese
    Note also the difference in the definition of 'transitive' between English and French. In traditional English grammar, a transitive verb is one that takes a direct object. Such a verb can additionally take an indirect object, but it must have a direct object to be 'transitive'. I see that this contrasts with the French definition given above.
     

    Thomas1

    Senior Member
    polszczyzna warszawska
    To illustrate the differences, a few examples of indirect transitive verbs in French and their direct transitive English equivalents:
    nuire à – harm something
    succéder à – succede something
    abuser de – abuse something
    douter de – doubt something (though, it can be direct if used with a subordinate clause)

    The opposite also takes place:
    listen to – écouter quelque chose (the transitive listen is archaic today)
    look for – chercher quelque chose
    wait for – attendre quelqu’un

    It should also be noted that:
    --the translation can be the same sort of a verb depending on which word you choose in the target language, e.g. ‘attendre quelqu’un’ can also be translated as ‘await somebody;’
    --sometimes a verb used as an indirect transitive one can change its meanig when used as a direct transitve one, e.g.: abuser de quelque chose à use something in a wrong way/to exess, abuser de quelqu’un à abuse someone sexually, but abuser quelqu’un à cheat/fool someone.
     

    jet_leader1

    Senior Member
    British English
    I am sorry, but in this case I think that Elle parle à cette personne, cette personne is not the indirect complement but what we call in French complément d'objet second (COS) ou complément d'attribution.
    For the verb "to talk about" = parler de, it is transitive indirect but it can be intransitive Je parle. = I am talking.
    About the verb "to talk to" = parler à, it is intransitive (Je parle à Marie.) or transitive direct (Je parle Anglais à Marie).
    You see, parler can be transitive direct (no préposition): Je parle Anglais.
    J'espère qu'il est authorisé de relancer ce sujet, mais pour la phrase « Je parle à Marie », pourquoi le verbe, « parler », est-il intransitif ?

    Puisque Marie est l'objet indirect, est-ce que le verbe dans cette phrase devrait être transitif indirect ?
     

    jann

    co-mod'
    English - USA
    Puisque Marie est l'objet indirect, est-ce que le verbe dans cette phrase devrait être transitif indirect ?
    In je parle à Marie, Marie is indeed the indirect object of the verb parler.

    There are two different ways of thinking about transitive status, depending on which grammar reference you use.

    Some grammar books will tell you that verbs with objects (regardless of whether those objects are direct or indirect) are "transitive." Using this system, we would say that parler is "transitive indirect" in your sentence.

    Other books will tell you that a verb has to have a direct object to be classified as "transitive." Using that system, parler is "intransitive" in your sentence, because the object is indirect.

    :)
     

    janpol

    Senior Member
    France - français
    Les remarques d'Outsider et l'exemple qu'il prend (I gave Jill a rose.) me semblent montrer que l'on ne peut pas dire que "lui" a la même fonction dans "je lui ai parlé" et dans "je lui ai donné une rose" car le second exemple conduit à dire que "donner" est en même temps, dans une même phrase "transitif direct" et "transitif indirect", il me semble donc difficile de faire l'économie de la notion de "complément d'objet second" que les grammaires scolaires françaises mentionnent après l'avoir longtemps appelé "complément d'attribution" (mais jamais ""COI")
    "j'ai donné une rose à Jill" > "une rose" = COD (complément d'objet "premier" qui permet de dire que "donner" est transitif direct dans cette phrase), "à Jill" = COS
    COD et COS sont indispensables pour que la phrase ait un sens (ils "marchent" ensemble) : les phrases "j'ai donné une rose" et "j'ai donné à Jill" me semblent (presque) également incorrectes
     

    Maître Capello

    Mod et ratures
    French – Switzerland
    Il ne faut pas mélanger la notion de COI et celle de complément essentiel ou non essentiel. Je l'ai dit et je le répète : COS n'est qu'un terme employé par certains grammairiens pour désigner le COI s'il y a également un COD, mais cela reste un COI. Voici ce que Grevisse en dit (§ 281, a) :
    Le complément d’objet indirect peut être le seul complément essentiel, comme dans les ex. donnés ci-dessus. Mais il peut aussi accompagner un complément d’objet direct, que l’on appelle alors objet premier, tandis que l’objet indirect est dit objet second (ou secondaire)
     

    petit1

    Senior Member
    français - France
    According to my french dictionary (I am French) in this case "parler" is "transitif indirect because the preposition is understated and "lui" or "leur is always between the subject and the verb. "je lui parle" "Je leur parle."
    "parler " can also be "transitif direct" when I say "Je parle français et anglais."
     
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    jacques songo'o

    Member
    spanish
    How does one tell the difference between an indirect transitive verb and an intransitive verb in French if both are followed by prepositions?

    My French grammar book lists the following as examples of intransitive verbs

    Il bavarde avec elle
    Je cours à la maison

    It lists the following as examples of indirect transitive verbs

    Il a peur de l'homme
    Elle parle à sa soeur

    Is there any rule which can definitely identify which one is which?
     

    atcheque

    Senior Member
    français (France)
    They are different grammatical typologies. Some don't recognise indirect transitive.
    Je cours à la maison was taught to me as intransitive with an adverbial phrase of location, la maison doesn't endure the process, it's the place of it.
    Avec is traditionally not a preposition leading to a [indirect] transitive verb.

    Furthermore, the main verb structure is aller, courir quelque part. You won't distinguish aller à, sur, vers, dans as separated verbs :eek:;):cool: The preposition is part of the complement (adverbial phrase), not of the verb.
     
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