Funaiolo

Lilypad604

Member
USA English
I think this word is describing the occupation of a 16th-c. acquaintance of Michelangelo, but I have no idea what it means:

"...quel pagamento del 31 agosto 1505 a Piero di Zanobi funaiolo "per panchoncelli d'abeto auti per mectere suvi el cartone di Michelagnolo in ballatoio."

Also, I'm having a really difficult time trying to translate the old Italian, can anyone help with the quoted phrase?

This passage is from Morozzi, "La Battaglia di Cascina di Michelangelo: nuova ipotesi sulla data di commissione," pg. 322.
 
  • Murphy

    Senior Member
    English, UK
    Apparently "funaio" and "funaiolo" are the same and mean someone who sells ropes and cables. However, the sentence in question seems to be talking about planks of pine wood (panchoncelli di abete), so I'm not sure how the two fit together.:(
    But according to Garzanti, "ballatoio" can translate as balcony/gallery/ledge/perch. Perhaps it all refers to the construction of one of those kinds of "lifts" made with ropes and planks that painters/window cleaners use for working on tall buildings? (For the life of me I can't remember what they're called:eek::rolleyes:)
     

    Memimao

    Senior Member
    United Kingdom English
    Apparently "funaio" and "funaiolo" are the same and mean someone who sells ropes and cables. However, the sentence in question seems to be talking about planks of pine wood (panchoncelli di abete), so I'm not sure how the two fit together.:(
    But according to Garzanti, "ballatoio" can translate as balcony/gallery/ledge/perch. Perhaps it all refers to the construction of one of those kinds of "lifts" made with ropes and planks that painters/window cleaners use for working on tall buildings? (For the life of me I can't remember what they're called:eek::rolleyes:)

    I seem to recall that they call them cradles but I may be wrong:eek:
     

    pandinorombante

    Senior Member
    Italy - Italian
    Guys, I'm native but this sentence is really obscure to me.....

    I found out that your sentence is taken from "Baccio Bandinelli and art at the Medici court" by Louis Alexander Waldman.
    The point is that I have never the word 'funaiolo' (I trust Murphy's interpretation), but neither do I about 'pachoncelli' (which is definitely an ancient Italian word cause you can't find the group of letters 'cho' in modern Italian, unless it's a foreigner word), 'auti', 'mectere' (it's a Latin verb), 'suvi' (it means summer in estonian but, as far as I know, nothing in modern Italian :D)... moreover I think you made some typos and I guess that Michelagnolo may be great Michelangelo...

    Therefore, for me the translation is totally out of sight... I tried to use Webster's dictionary for those words but nothing. I can just give my attempt using lot of fantasy: "quel pagamento del 31 agosto 1505 a Piero di Zanobi funaiolo fu fatto per le assi d'abete usate per mettere **** al cartone/gesso della galleria/davanzale/cornicione di Michelangelo".

    I think anyway that Murphy is right, it may be referred to that kind of "lifts" used to paint a fresco in this case.

    Last point: Lilypad, don't take me as rude person, but why are you dealing with such difficult book? Maybe your Italian is already advanced, but, still, I would have lots of problems too, although I'm a native.. also because it's difficult to find the meaning of some words which are not used anymore in current Italian.

    Ciao a tutti :)
     

    london calling

    Senior Member
    UK English
    It might be, LC, but I'm not sure at all... give us your whole try... ;)
    You're the native!;) I think you and Murphy have found a very plausible answer. Mine was merely a suggestion for that one word, in the hope that somebody might actually know for sure!:)

    I was thinking along the lines of "per metterci sopra il cartongesso" (if that's what "cartone" means!), planks of pinewood (i.e. a cradle) on which to put the XXXX in order to lift it up onto the balcony, gallery, loggia or whatever...

    But I'm only guessing, people! :(
     

    pandinorombante

    Senior Member
    Italy - Italian
    You're the native!;) I think you and Murphy have found a very plausible answer. Mine was merely a suggestion for that one word, in the hope that somebody might actually know for sure!:)

    I was thinking along the lines of "per metterci sopra il cartongesso" (if that's what "cartone" means!), planks of pinewood (i.e. a cradle) on which to put the XXXX in order to lift it up onto the balcony, gallery, loggia or whatever...

    But I'm only guessing, people! :(
    After so many years here, you are native as well... your ears are bilingual :D

    Anyway, since I'm far from being a Michelangelo's pupil, I can only agree with our attempts so far, "per metterci sopra il cartongesso" (cartone has exactly that meaning in this sentence) sounds a really good idea of translation, but I do not know how the planks of pinewood can be put together to build this "lift" which is necessary to paint a loggia... :confused:
     

    gio-march

    New Member
    Italian
    my guess:
    funaiolo here might not only be a rope maker, but maybe it's also the person that builds the scaffolding. so I guess the paymment is for the scaffolding used to lift (suvi, brigh up) the "cartone" (the rough copy of the art work that will be painted but it might be the canvas in this case). the lifting must have been done with a pulley (carrucola) and that's why they need a rope and called the funaiolo (from fune = rope).

    so my guess is:

    auti = avuti = obtained/had

    panchocelli d'abete = piccole palanche di abete = fir/pine wood beam (even though it more like a sheet) used to make the scaffoling on which Michelangelo painted in case of fresoes, or just the structure for the pulley in case it is a canvas taht needs to be placed

    mectere suvi = portare su = lift/bring up

    il cartone = the canvas or the rough copy if it is the case of a fresco

    ballatoio = balcony

    I hope I could help :)
     

    Lilypad604

    Member
    USA English
    Thank you everyone for your replies! It makes a lot of sense now, I'm under the impression that Morozzi was quoting the old italian to emphasize the materials that were delivered to Michelangelo (called Michelagnolo, not a typo, in his day). Pandirombante asked why I'm reading such hard articles, they're sources for my master's research in art history, so I really don't have any choice. Thank you again to everyone, I really, really appreciate it!
     
    < Previous | Next >
    Top