Garden, gardener

ThomasK

Senior Member
Belgium, Dutch
This idea of surrounding is fairly new to me, although maybe any fence will be "around" a circular, square or rectangular plot. Or does "to enclose" refer to some kind of roundness????

@bibax: the title you are referring to, is the title of a poem, isn't it?
 
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  • djara

    Senior Member
    Tunisia Arabic
    The title you are referring to, is the title of a poem, isn't it?
    I'm not sure whether the question was addressed to me. If it is, my reference is to the earliest Arabic dictionary.
    As to gardens being enclosures, I think the concept is widespread and cross cultural. The word garden itself is ultimately from Latin hortus gardinus, enclosed garden. (etymonline)
    As far as I know, enclosed gardens are usually either square-shaped or rectangular, not circular.
     

    bibax

    Senior Member
    Czech (Prague)
    @bibax: the title you are referring to, is the title of a poem, isn't it?
    Yes, it is a poem written by Alexander Pushkin.

    Bakhchysarai (or Bakhchisaray) is a city in Crimea. The name comes from Persian باغچه سرای (bāghche sarāy) which means the Garden Palace.
     
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    igusarov

    Senior Member
    Russian
    As for the background of my question: a Frenchspeaking interview referred to monks as the jardiniers de l'humanité, but I find no good equivalent
    If your question is about figurative ways to picture relations between monks and people, then in Russian monks are sometimes called "пастырь" [ˈpastɨrʲ] - an obsolete word which meant "shepherd", and his attendants are called "паства" [ˈpastvə] i.e. those being tended by the shepherd. Etymology goes back to the verb "to graze, to herd".
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    Catalan: jardí [ʒəɾ'ði] (Western [dʒaɾ'ði]) and jardiner [ʒəɾði'ne] (Western [dʒaɾði'neɾ]).

    I guess Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan and Italian forms all come from French jardin. Otherwise we should have forms starting with [g] instead of with [(d)ʒ].
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    @Penyafort 's comment has just made me wonder now if English yard and garden actually have the same origin but came into the language from different sources. They are very close in meaning anyway.

    On the origin of jardin (Fr)
    À l'époque gallo-romaine, les linguistes d'aujourd'hui en sont convaincus, existait l'hortus gardinus, désignant le jardin entouré d'une clôture. En fait, hortus, représente pour les Romains le jardin au sens général du terme, c'est-à-dire une terre plus ou moins étendue, plantée de végétaux et, au reste, à l'origine du mot «horticulteur» ; l'autre, germanique, gart ou gardo, définit la clôture.

    So jardin meant originally "enclosed plantation" (hortus gardinus). It has to be a very old word since palatalization from /ɡa/ > /dʒa/ occurred in Early Old French. Hortus doesn't exist anymore
     
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    ThomasK

    Senior Member
    Belgium, Dutch
    One more link I should have thought of before: town/ Dutch tuin (garden)/ German Zaun (fence). It all starts with a fence, but in Dutch and English it developed to the area enclosed (by the fence): a mini-city, a garden.
     

    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    Well, enclosures make sense for gardens. Just think of the garden of Paradise, word that was taken from Old Persians for the wall around it.
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    I take back my comment on "Hortus". The word does exist in Italian but it eluded me because it has lost its h: "Orto". It is frequent and can mean yard, botanical or vegetable garden.
    "Giardino" seems reserved for greenery or any specific types of garden.
    There is a word specifically related to "orto" meaning fruit and vegetable gardener: "ortolano".
     
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    Penyafort

    Senior Member
    Catalan (Catalonia), Spanish (Spain)
    I take back my comment on "Hortus". The word does exist in Italian but it eluded me because it has lost its h: "Orto". It is frequent and can mean yard, botanical or vegetable garden.
    "Giardino" seems reserved for greenery or any specific types of garden.
    There is a word specifically related to "orto" meaning fruit and vegetable gardener: "ortolano".

    I thought you were referring to French. Otherwise those descendants exist not only in Italian but also in Catalan (hort, hortolà), Spanish (huerto, hortelano), Portuguese (horto, hortelão), etc. There are even distinctions between the masculine (hort, huerto, horto) and the feminine (horta, huerta, horta), which is larger.
     

    Agró

    Senior Member
    Spanish-Navarre
    Hortus doesn't exist anymore
    It does exist in English. Only in disguise:
    Collins Concise English Dictionary © HarperCollins Publishers::
    orchard /ˈɔːtʃəd/n
    1. an area of land devoted to the cultivation of fruit trees
    2. a collection of fruit trees especially cultivated
    Etymology: Old English orceard, ortigeard, from ort-, from Latin hortus garden + geard yard²
     

    merquiades

    Senior Member
    English (USA Northeast)
    It does exist in English. Only in disguise:
    Collins Concise English Dictionary © HarperCollins Publishers::
    orchard /ˈɔːtʃəd/n
    1. an area of land devoted to the cultivation of fruit trees
    2. a collection of fruit trees especially cultivated
    Etymology: Old English orceard, ortigeard, from ort-, from Latin hortus garden + geard yard²
    Wow. Orchard. I'd have never made the connection.
    Ort yard is the same as hortus gardinus. Maybe the source was some intermediate old French term close to *hort-jard.
     
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    symposium

    Senior Member
    Italian - Italy
    There are even distinctions between the masculine (hort, huerto, horto) and the feminine (horta, huerta, horta), which is larger.
    It is a common trait in Italian, and maybe other Romance languages, to swap from one (grammatical) gender to the other in order to indicate a different size: cesto (m.)=basket/cesta (f.)=a large basket; casa (f.)=house/casone (m.)=a big house/casino (m.)=a small house; donna (f.)=woman/ donnone (m.)=a large woman; canna (f.)=reed, cane/ cannone (m.)=cannon etc. etc...
     

    Linnets

    Senior Member
    It is a common trait in Italian, and maybe other Romance languages, to swap from one (grammatical) gender to the other in order to indicate a different size: cesto (m.)=basket/cesta (f.)=a large basket; casa (f.)=house/casone (m.)=a big house/casino (m.)=a small house; donna (f.)=woman/ donnone (m.)=a large woman; canna (f.)=reed, cane/ cannone (m.)=cannon etc. etc...
    A common explanation was that the feminine one was "bigger" because it recalled the "mother": e.g. il coltello, la coltella (Tuscan) 'a large blade knife (for example the one used to cut bread)' il cucchiaio, la cucchiara (Sicilian) 'a large spoon.' However your examples show that also masculine gender is used to indicate the larger ones. Back in topic, it's worth noting that in Italian *l'orta doesn't exist.
     
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