Gender code vs article

[cuchuflete]

First, Whodunit is correct. We need a sub-forum for questions.

Edit: Thanks Mike!!!


Next: The glossary spreadsheet allows for "m/f" coding.

Some foreros in a particular glossary thread decided not to use it, and to put definite articles in the cells with their translations.

example

table....................la mesa


They offered reasons for this. It was not arbitrary or thoughtless.

There are a few unfortunate results. First, it makes alphabetizing the glossary by entries in those languages difficult, if not impossible.

Second, and of greater concern, it breaks the essential method we are trying to use in this forum: add whatever you like, but don't change things without discussion in the thread, and reaching broad agreement, including that of the thread manager.

Here we have had a fundamental format change, based on the quick agreement of two very competent and intelligent foreros, but without any broad consensus. In keeping with the wiki spirit of the glossary forum, I am stating my concern and disagreement in a thread. I have not touched my colleagues' entries in the glossary.

Here is one statement on this matter:

I don't understand the way of "don't change" ... Why? It was German, and I think I know what and why I had to change.Nobody is questioning your knowledge of German. Unfortunately, everything went up and down in the file, so that a chair became a stool in German and so on ... Am I not allowed to change my own entries? You may certainly edit your own entries to correct spelling errors and such. Whether you should be able to change your own entries based on other factors....I'm not sure! Let's discuss some cases in which you might want to.

__

 

[Whodunit]

Okay, there are still some problems:

1. We can't delete the "gender column", unless we allow to write the letters "f" or "m" behind the word, because in French and Itlalian you can aphostrophize some articles, so that the genders become totally identical.
2. Everyone has to agree on this.
3. Can we change articles that are indicated in gender code and actual preceding articles (le, la, el, der, una)?

I'd like to hear from you.

 

[cuchuflete]

Okay, there are still some problems:

1. We can't delete the "gender column", unless we allow to write the letters "f" or "m" behind the word, because in French and Itlalian you can aphostrophize some articles, so that the genders become totally identical.
2. Everyone has to agree on this.
3. Can we change articles that are indicated in gender code and actual preceding articles (le, la, el, der, una)?

I'd like to hear from you.

As input to the discussion of #1, take some common feminine nouns in Spanish, that for reasons we need not discuss here, require the masculine definite article, and some that do not:

El águila (fem.)
El agua (fem.)
El aula (fem.)
El hacha (fem.)
La aguja (fem.)
La abuela (fem.)


What will be most useful to the user of a glossary...the article or the gender code? I assume that native Spanish speakers don't refer to a glossary to verify which article to use with a noun, nor is the article the primary concern of the non-native looking for a Spanish equivalent of eagle, water, classroom or axe.

 

[amikama]

Why not use color code? Say, blue for masculine nouns and red for feminine nouns.

book ...... libro
table ...... mesa
water ..... agua

 

[Phryne]

PD: Should we "fix" the furniture thread??

 

[VenusEnvy]

Yes, for this particular thread, Venus does all the furniture repair, but she has willing helpers, if needed

I kept the one-line-more-than-one-word as was. To make the gender correspond, I simply followed the pattern.

heladera / refrigerador / nevera
f / m / f

We could break these down so that they each have their own line, but I wouldn't want this to confuse people. They might get confused by which translation goes with what English word...

PD: Should we "fix" the furniture thread??

Well, the furniture thread follows the pattern that I described above. I guess we'll have to wait and see what others say about it...

 

[cuchuflete]

Why not use color code? Say, blue for masculine nouns and red for feminine nouns.

book ...... libro
table ...... mesa
water ..... agua

Hi Amikama,

First things first. Let's first decide what we are attempting to accomplish, and then get to the methods.

Re color coding...it won't work as intended. When Mike and I exchanged Excel files yesterday, the colors he sent were not those I saw displayed, and vice versa. The variables that cause this may include Mac/PC operating systems, versions of Excel or OpenOffice, etc.

Also, I see no relative improvement by making m=blue.
They both tell the glossary user that the word is masculine. Color is neither worse nor better. Personally, I find it quicker to type m than reach for the mouse and click a color palette.

 

[Sev]

What will be most useful to the user of a glossary...the article or the gender code

Both. Why couldn't we have two separate columns, one with the gender, and one with the article ? Of course, most of the time that'd be redundant but from your discussions I guess it worth it... ?

 

[mkellogg]

This thead is about gender codes vs. articles. Why not create a new thread if you want to discuss something else? (Cuchu and Phryne)

 

[mkellogg]

Sev's suggestion seems reasonable if people really want to take the time to enter in both POS/gender and article columns.

 

[cuchuflete]

Both. Why couldn't we have two separate columns, one with the gender, and one with the article ? Of course, most of the time that'd be redundant but from your discussions I guess it worth it... ?

Hi Sev,

If we were writing a dictionary, I would probably advocate for more of everything! If we want to build useful, simple glossaries, I see no reason to replicate the work of a grammar book, which tells learners of FR which articles typically go with m and n nouns, including ellisions and exceptions.



While I am delighted with the enthusiasm of so many people to add more and more 'features', I think it will attract more participants, and generally make life easier, if we try to do something very focused.

Just one forero's opinion..
Cuchu

 

[Sev]

OK, I agree. To keep it as simple as possible is a good idea. Anyway, it's more some spanish and german speakers who were concerned about that, but they seem rather quiet now....so let's do as if they agree, because "Qui ne dit mot consent"

Hi Sev,
If we were writing a dictionary, I would probably advocate for more of everything! If we want to build useful, simple glossaries, I see no reason to replicate the work of a grammar book, which tells learners of FR which articles typically go with m and n nouns, including ellisions and exceptions.
While I am delighted with the enthusiasm of so many people to add more and more 'features', I think it will attract more participants, and generally make life easier, if we try to do something very focused.
Just one forero's opinion..
Cuchu

 

[cuchuflete]

Remind me to have you on my side if a war starts, Dear Sev.

Let's give everyone a chance to express their silence opinion!

Our default, from the starter file spreadsheet, is "m/f" Anyone is welcome to use "n" when appropriate. If we find a good reason, supported by most foreros, to change that, we can change it. We are not rigid in our thinking on most points, but we all need to share a common process.

-add
-do not delete or edit another person's entries
-always work from the latest copy of the file...upload from the last post.

Let's do this for a while, and see how it works.

Un saludo,
Cuchu