German toponyms of presumably Polabian origin ending -leben

berndf

Moderator
German (Germany)
In historically Polabian speaking areas of Germany (comprising areas in the modern states of Brandenburg, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Sachsen-Anhalt and Lower Saxony) there are toponyms ending in -leben, like Gorleben, Walsleben, Ruhleben. I presume this ending is of Polabian origin. Do you have an idea from which Slavic word this could be derived? I am interested the Polabian/Sorbian word and possible cognates in other Slavic, in particular West-Slavic, languages.

The only hint I found so far is in the German Wikipedia for the name Gorleben which reads that leben means Erde (earth). But there is no source.

Thank you.
 
  • I read that these "-leben" are either of slavic origin and were renamed from "-slav", e.g. Pripsleben or were founded by Germanic people.

    Another thesis is that these names are from the period of the migration and most of these towns are along the routes of from north to south. Between Haldensleben and Erfurt are over 100 places ending with "-leben". Kurt Linder wrote it in his history about the town of Eisleben. It could be true because all most of these "-lebens" are west of the Elbe. And "-leben" is said to mean "heritage" or "allodium".

    By the way, a similar ending also exists in Scandinavia: -lev and -löv
     
    Hi, Berndf. Could it possibly come from left -- lewy in Polish (the same root in many other Slavic languages). There is a Slovak town Leva, the name of which is thought to have come form the Left. In fact, the modern name of the town is Levice. (Old Slavic name -- Leva).

    I also believe that the ending, -leben, can be related to the Slavic -slav. (Slawen in German). Elbslawen were the Polabian tribes. Elba in many Slavic languages is Labe -- if this word could be somehow related, as well.

    In fact Polaben, has a -laben stem and the prefix -po which means next to. The people who live near the Elbe.

    I think leben may also come from Labe -- the Elbe River.
     
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    Thank you both for your comments.
    Between Haldensleben and Erfurt are over 100 places ending with "-leben". Kurt Linder wrote it in his history about the town of Eisleben. It could be true because all most of these "-lebens" are west of the Elbe. And "-leben" is said to mean "heritage" or "allodium".
    This is exactly the line where the Limes Sorabicus ran in the 9th century, the time of the greatest westward expansion of the Slavs.
    By the way, a similar ending also exists in Scandinavia: -lev and -löv
    Do you know the the etymology of those?
     
    I've found this for Danish:

    "-LEV Meaning: property, inheritance.
    Examples: Haderslev, Sejerslev, Branderslev.
    Description: Derives from Old Danish '-lef', which again derives from Old Germanic 'liban'. The original meaning is 'the remainder' or 'what's left'. Nearly all of the prefixes derives from personal names; the name of the person who owned the village.Date: These settlements dates back to the 3rd - 6th century."

    (http://mydanishroots.com/research-g...n-elements-in-danish-place-names.html?start=1)
     
    I've found this for Danish:

    "-LEV Meaning: property, inheritance.
    Examples: Haderslev, Sejerslev, Branderslev.
    Description: Derives from Old Danish '-lef', which again derives from Old Germanic 'liban'. The original meaning is 'the remainder' or 'what's left'. Nearly all of the prefixes derives from personal names; the name of the person who owned the village.Date: These settlements dates back to the 3rd - 6th century."

    (http://mydanishroots.com/research-g...n-elements-in-danish-place-names.html?start=1)
    Thanks. That was my suspicion too. That it would be related to Leben (life). In Low German we have the /b/>/f/ shift as well (e.g. HG ich habe vs. LG ik hef; HG Leben vs. LG Leven; HG Lieben vs. LG Leiven). So for toponyms of Norse or LG origin we could see -lev > -leben would be entirely possible as HG renditions of the LG versions of those names. Do we have those toponyms North of the Benrater Line and sufficiently West/North-West of the Limites Saxonicus/Sorabicus to exclude a Slavic origin?
     
    "To leave" would make much more sense. If you inherited something it has been "left" by someone. Just my two cents based on intuition.
    Swedish löv is indeed cognate to leaf; German Laub. It makes perfect sense in toponyms in the sense of woods.
     
    Do we have those toponyms North of the Benrater Line and sufficiently West/North-West of the Limites Saxonicus/Sorabicus to exclude a Slavic origin?

    If the limes sorabicus is drawn correctly here then quite a number of towns named "-leben" are west of it e.g. Oschersleben, Aschersleben, Ebeleben, Elxleben, etc. The Saale River is approxiately the limit.
     
    If the limes sorabicus is drawn correctly here then quite a number of towns named "-leben" are west of it e.g. Oschersleben, Aschersleben, Ebeleben, Elxleben, etc. The Saale River is approxiately the limit.
    The names Limes Saxonicus and Limes Sorabicus might be a bit misleading. They were never raizor sharp lines like to Germanic Limes in Roman times but rather several 10 km wide corridors of Germanic and Slavic settlements. If you look at towns like Sandersleben, Siersleben, Eisleben which appear like pearls on a string you find unambiguously Slavic names within 15 km (as the crow flies). Your interpretation in #2 appeals to me that they could German names for isolated Slavic settlement on the German side of the line.
     
    This is a fact – Illyrians are the only candidates from the recorded history that could truly fit this shoe. Their Modus Operandi and notorious reputation were virtually identical to those of sea peoples.

    Interesting theory. I suppose a connection could be made between Slavs and Central European toponyms/hydronyms containing the particle “Leb” or “Lab/Alb”, depending on how much evidence can be found to support this.

    But the claim that Illyrians are “the only candidates from recorded history” that could truly fit the description of the Sea Peoples, seems a bit overstretched.

    The Egyptians were quite accurate when recording ethnonyms. For example, “People of Keftiu” mentioned in Egyptian inscriptions seems to refer to the biblical “Caphtorites” or “Caphtorim”, probably from Crete. In fact, Egyptian art (e.g., painting from the tomb of Rekhmire, 2nd register) clearly identifies them as Minoan Cretans.

    Here is a better picture of the “People of Keftiu”:

    Cretans Bringing Gifts, Tomb of Rekhmire - Wikimedia Commons

    The Minoans are easily recognisable by their characteristic colourful loincloths, footwear, long hair and vessels of typical Cretan type.

    The Sea Peoples seem to have been different ethnic groups, one of which is referred to as “Peleset”, probably identical with the biblical Philistines and originally from the Aegean. Another group, the “Lukka” seems to refer to Lycians, from the same region as the Peleset. There are a few others that could be Greeks: Denyen-Danaoi, Ekwesh-Achaeans, etc.

    As far as I’m aware, none of these groups are referred to in Egyptian sources by terms resembling “Leb/Lab/Alb” or that would otherwise specifically connect the Sea Peoples with the Slavs.

    You might be able to connect the Luwians of Asia Minor with Wilusa a.k.a. Troy, but linking them with Slavs or Illyrians from the Balkans, may prove more difficult.

    And what if in some cases “Alb” doesn’t come from a word for “white” but from, say, PIE *alb "hill” or some other word?

    According to Wikipedia, in modern languages the term alp, alm, albe or alpe refers to grazing pastures, especially but not exclusively, in mountainous areas (German Bergweide). Although, as the Oxford English Dictionary puts it, it is “of uncertain and perhaps ultimately non-Indo-European origin”.
     
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    The IE al, ar, el, er, or, ol ... (= vowel + l, r) in Slavic languages results in lo, ro, le, re, la, ra, oro, olo, ...depending on the concrete Slavic language.

    Thus we have: moloko, mleko, mliko ... (germ. milk, melken, lat. mulgere), golova, glava, gva ...(lat. calva); korotkij, ktki, krátky (lat. curtus, english short), poros-, prosie, prasa (lat. porcus) ....

    This could explain, for example, the names of the river Elba / Labe. But in case of -leben I could not find any phonetically corresponding Slavic meaningful word, even if taking in consideration what I've written before ...

    My personal impression is that "leben" in toponyms simply means a "place/village/comunity..." where people live or dwell.

    (Indepedently, in Hungary there are toponyms ending in -lak which is etymologically connectable with the verb lakni = to dwell. Of course, etymologically it has nothing to do with the German leben)
     
    I'm not sure, if -leben is a slavic suffix at all.

    For example, german names of Polish cities with this word ending:

    -leben
    Ostoja - Schadeleben
    Korytowo - Walsleben

    These two are completely diffrent.


    -eben

    Ciążeń - Streben
    Rybno - Rieben
    Trzebień - Kittlitztreben

    -ben
    Grabina - Gräben
    Gubin - Guben
    Lubin - Lüben
    Łubianka - Luben
    Wierzbna - Würben
    Sarbia - Zarben
    Skibno - Schübben
    Wierzbno - Werben
    Skibno - Schübben


    All of these garbled suffixes:
    -eń
    -no
    -ień
    -ina
    -in
    -ia
    are equivalents of -berg, -city, -town, -vilage.


    ----------------
    Teoretically I can imagine former polish vilages:
    Chlebeń, Chlebina, (...) (Bread-town) -> Chleben / Kleben
    Kolebeń, Kolebno, (...) (Rocking-town / Craldle-town) -> Koleben
     
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    -leben
    Ostoja - Schadeleben
    Korytowo - Walsleben
    The German equivalent of Korytowo was Kürtow. The modern name of the Ostoja seems not to continue the former German name of Schadeleben. There is certainly a story behind it but I can't find it.

    Please bear in mind that we are talking about historically Polabian and not Polish speaking areas. The languages are related (both are West Slavic) but they are not the same. I am not an expert on Slavic languages but in my understanding, the now extinct Polabian language was more closely related to Sorbian than to Polish.

    But your example Schadeleben is interesting. There is a Schadeleben further west, which can be traced back to Scadenleve, which is obviously Low-German (the bequest of Skado - leve related to English leave as discussed earlier in this thread) and not Polabian. It is entirely possible that all of the German toponyms in -leben are of Old Saxon (the ancestor language of Low German) or Old North origin but I still suspect there is a conflation of two independent suffixes, a Germanic and a Slavic one.
     
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    Please bear in mind that we are talking about historically Polabian and not Polish speaking areas.
    You're right. And even Old Polish was a different language, so there could have existed words and suffixes nonexistent in modern Polish.

    But as I see, German versions of slavic towns are usually strongly modiffied, and Slavs do the same, making slavic version of German cities:
    Brandenburg - Brandenburgia
    Dresden - Drezno
    Genf - Genewa
    Göttingen - Getynga
    Kiel - Kilonia
    Leipzig - Lipsk

    Polskie odpowiedniki niemieckich nazw geograficznych – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia

    So, I don't think it's likely to save such long suffixes in city names when they are transferred between languages.
     
    German though has some consistent place name endings on Slavic origin in formerly bilingual areas, notably -in (as in Berlin) and -ow (as in Pankow). Name for cities far away for the area where a language is spoken is probably a different matter.

    Note that Genf is just the German name for a city where German is not spoken and never has been spoken. The Polish name represents quite well the pronunciation in the historical Geneva dialect of Francoprovencal, except that the first syllable is [d͜ðə]~[d͜zə]~[ðə] and not [gɛ]. The modern Arpitan spelling (though Arpitan is no longer spoken anywhere in the canton of Geneva) is Genèva.
     
    Thanks. That was my suspicion too. That it would be related to Leben (life). In Low German we have the /b/>/f/ shift as well (e.g. HG ich habe vs. LG ik hef; HG Leben vs. LG Leven; HG Lieben vs. LG Leiven). So for toponyms of Norse or LG origin we could see -lev > -leben would be entirely possible as HG renditions of the LG versions of those names. Do we have those toponyms North of the Benrater Line and sufficiently West/North-West of the Limites Saxonicus/Sorabicus to exclude a Slavic origin?
    I was suddenly reminded of my own village's name: Tiegem, consisting of Tieboud (proper name) + gem, related with "home" and thus reminding me of "Leben" as inheritance... Had never imagined there could have been a link, but now... See also @francisgranada's final note in #14: do both refer to villages simply?
     
    The Swedish -löv is said to have come from leaf, leaves, foliage.

    "To leave" would make much more sense. If you inherited something it has been "left" by someone. Just my two cents based on intuition.

    Swedish löv is indeed cognate to leaf; German Laub. It makes perfect sense in toponyms in the sense of woods.
    Although the Swedish word löv means leaf, foliage, the word ending -löv in placenames is not related to that word, but instead to the Danish -lev, with the same meaning "left", as in inheritance. Almost all placenames with -löv are in Scania, which was a part of Denmark until 1658.
     
    You're right. And even Old Polish was a different language, so there could have existed words and suffixes nonexistent in modern Polish.

    But as I see, German versions of slavic towns are usually strongly modiffied, and Slavs do the same, making slavic version of German cities:
    Brandenburg - Brandenburgia
    Dresden - Drezno
    Genf - Genewa
    Göttingen - Getynga
    Kiel - Kilonia
    Leipzig - Lipsk

    Polskie odpowiedniki niemieckich nazw geograficznych – Wikipedia, wolna encyklopedia

    So, I don't think it's likely to save such long suffixes in city names when they are transferred between languages.
    In the case of Lipsk and Drez(d)no Polish simply preserves the original Slavic names (aside from zdn->zn shift which we also see in Gniezdno->Gniezno).
     
    I have found a bunch of Germanic names with endings suggesting "Slavic" origins
    • German Pankow (Polabian?);
    • German Bülow;
    • Danish Hjelmslev;
    • Swedish Zelmerlöw.
    Thanks in advance
     
    LllI have found a bunch of Germanic names with endings suggesting "Slavic" origins
    • Danish Hjelmslev
    Nor does the Danish surname Hjelmslev have any Slavic connections it's a surname created at some time in the end of the 19th century by Johannes Hjelmslev, originally Petersen. Whether -lev has to do with "inheritance" or "life", or "leaf" I can't say. I couldn't find a surname ending with -lev among the 350 most common Danish surnames.
    See: Johannes Hjelmslev – Wikipedia
     
    So they're both recent surnames but fully Germanic, right?
    Although Swedish and Danish are Germanic languages, I can't see anything "fully Germanic" in either name. Zelmerlöw could as well have been spelt Selmerlöv, the choice of /z/ and /w/ was possibly done to make it look "posher"/unusual.
    The Danish word hjelm means helmet, nothing really Germanic about that, sounds more Viking/Nordic related. I doubt a Dane would have taken a Germanic-sounding surname after Denmark having lost Schleswig to Prussia in 1864.
    Second Schleswig War - Wikipedia
     
    The Danish word hjelm means helmet, nothing really Germanic about that, sounds more Viking/Nordic related.
    Hjelm is a regular Germanic word. Nothing foreign about it. And yes, the Danish word is from Old Norse (hjalmR). Why do you say "more"? Old Norse (the language the Vikings spoke) is Germanic. It can't get more Germanic than Old Norse. All other Germanic languages of the time had much more foreign influence.
     
    Hjelm is a regular Germanic word. Nothing foreign about it. And yes, the Danish word is from Old Norse (hjalmR). Why do you say "more"? Old Norse (the language the Vikings spoke) is Germanic. It can't get more Germanic than Old Norse. All other Germanic languages of the time had much more foreign influence.
    Yes, Danish is a Germanic language, but the use of "fully Germanic" in post #27 sounded to me as if the name/word hjelm had been chosen for it being a German word, not for being a Danish word. I compared it with the German names in post #23.
     
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