German: Yes in Bavarian

[Perseas]

Hello,
I found on internet that in Bavarian, "yes" is "iå"(cf. "ja") and "yes" in response to a negative question is "jo" (cf. "doch). Is that right and what is the pronunciation of both of them? Thank you.

 

[berndf]

Standard German ja is Bavarian jå [jɒ] and doch is oh jå [o jɒ]. Vowel length is non-phonemic.

 

[Drink]

Wiktionary includes the following entry:

Is this an error?

 

[berndf]

That is a somewhat special case. The ordinary use of doch is a contradicting answer to a negative question. Example:
Kommst heute nicht mehr ins Büro. Doch, ich komme später noch einmal rein.
In Bavarian, oh jå is used the same way.

In the above case, doch is an agreeing answer to the negative question (the speaker indeed intended to leave and the ned/nicht in the question isn't really a negotiation but a flavouring particle) but the speaker adds a caviat (in the end, they didn't leave because of the bad weather). In standard German, this special meaning is triggered by doch being immediately followed by aber (but) and in Bavarian by jå immediately followed by åwa. This special meaning is in both languages normally reinforced by a specific prosody, which includes a lengthened pronunciation of doch/jå (yeeeees but...). But this lengthening is prosodic and not phonemic. Bavarian has no phonemic vowel length. This may be accompanied by raising or å from [ɔ]~[ɒ] to [o]. But this also isn't phonemic and it is optional. I find the phonemic transcription /o:/ misleading.

Also, the sample sentence contains errors: schlecht isn't really a Bavarian word. In this sentence one would say schiach and not schlecht. The standard German version contains two typos (furt instead of fort and is instead of ist).

 

[Drink]

I guess my question is more about whether it's possible that jå and jo are different words with separate etymologies, just as ja/já and jo/jú are separate words in Swedish/Icelandic. That seems to be what is implied in this Wiktionary entry, especially in the etymology section.

 

[berndf]

In my understanding Danish/Swedish jo is a doublet of ja. The assumption is that jo is a loan from Middle Low German while ja is native but this is not 100% certain. The Low German long a is back and rounded, [ɒ:]. High German has [jo:] as a variant of [ja:] but with without difference in meaning. It is generally assumed that this is merely a pronunciation variant but it cannot be excluded with absolute certainty that there wasn't an unattested root for the jo that merged semantically with ja.

The way jo is used in Danish and Swedish corresponds to the regular use of doch as I described in #2. And the Bavarian equivalent of use of doch that is oh jå.

I find that Wiktionary entry a bit confused.

 

[Drink]

Thanks for clarifying!

PS: If Danish/Swedish jo is borrowed from Low German, then the Icelandic jú is borrowed from Danish/Swedish?

 

[berndf]

No idea. What it they all have in common (irrespective of etymology) is that what standard German describes with doch and French with si is what these languages describe with an emphatic form of yes. And Bavarian describes with the emphatic oh ja. Until about the 16th century English had in responses to negative questions or assertions the same logic: yea = non-emphatic = German ja, yes = emphatic = German doch.

What I find so confused is that they singled out a very exotic case that only works in collocation with awa=but (same with German doch aber) and the transcription (Bavarian has no authoritative spelling rules) reflects prosodic distortion and not phonemicity.

 

[AutumnOwl]

The way jo is used in Danish and Swedish corresponds to the regular use of doch as I described in #2. And the Bavarian equivalent of use of doch that is oh jå.

Do you by this mean that jo in Swedish is only used ask an agreeing answer to negative questions?

 

[berndf]

Do you by this mean that jo in Swedish is only used ask an agreeing answer to negative questions?

I meant it in the context of what I have written here:

What it they all have in common (irrespective of etymology) is that what standard German describes with doch and French with si is what these languages describe with an emphatic form of yes.

I.e. that if used in an appropriate context, it conveys the same meaning as German doch or Frech si. I don't know enough about Swedish to be able to judge the the various connotations of what I understand as an "emphatic form of yes" in other context.

 

[AutumnOwl]

I meant it in the context of what I have written here:

I.e. that if used in an appropriate context, it conveys the same meaning as German doch or Frech si. I don't know enough about Swedish to be able to judge the the various connotations of what I understand as an "emphatic form of yes" in other context.

For me, I would say ja would be a more "emphatic form of yes" than jo. I'd say that in everyday speech, I'm probably as likely to use ja or jo (ja/jo; javisst/jovisst; jadå/jodå; jamen/jomen).

 

[berndf]

Thank you. As it is generally assumed that jo is from Low German and ja and jo exist in both Danish and Swedish I just assumed the Danes got it from Low German and the Swedes from Danish. Maybe I am wrong. But do you agree, that in Danish jo is generally stronger than jo or at least used in conjunction with strengthening particle? That is at least my impression which I have cross checked with the ordbok. Do you share my reading of this article?

 

[AutumnOwl]

Even if I understand Danish, my knowledge of the language isn't such that I can answer if jo is stronger or not than in Swedish.

For the Swedish use, you can look up Svenska Akademiens Ordbok, Svenska Akademiens ordbok | SAOB. Whether the Swedish jo is a loan from Low German, well, Svensk Etymologisk Ordbok from 1922 says it's probably not so, it's more likely an unstessed form (trycksvag) of ja. 280 (Svensk etymologisk ordbok) You can read about ja a few pages earlier.

 

[GringoDaGema]

Hi everyone!

I just registered in order to be able to contribute something here.

I am Bavarian and I can confirm that "jo" (with a long closed o) means the same as standard German "doch" (as opposed to "ja" [with a dark a, in some areas even an open o] which means the same as "ja" in standard German), so the information from the first and third post in this thread is correct. It's really interesting to learn that the same thing exists in Swedish and Icelandic as well!

I think that this word is getting out of use though. I associate it with older people's speech. Maybe in more remote areas it's still actively used by younger people. Even I as a Bavarian speaker don't use it actively and rather tend to use "doch" (pronounced the Bavarian way, which is with a long closed o, as opposed to the standard German pronounciation with a short open o) while my mum for example still does (same thing happening with "old-fashioned" Bavarian words like "Stiang" being replaced by "Treppm" for standard German "Treppe" [stairs] or "Erdepfe" replaced by "Kardoffe" for standard German "Kartoffel" [potato] or even using plain standard German words like "Meerrettich" instead of "Kren" [horseradish]).

I think by now the word "doch" is used much more than the good old "jo" among Bavarian speakers. Nevertheless I consider my language still proper Bavarian and not just a local form of standard German that many younger people speak. I grew up in a small town and spoke only Bavarian (even with people that where from somewhere else) until I moved to Munich where I realised that only elderly people still speak Bavarian and so I learned to adapt my speech to anything between full-on Bavarian and standard German (with some Bavarian accent and some local expressions in it of course [which would still be considerd "speaking Bavarian" when doing so in Berlin <even though they have a local accent and local expressions there as well> and "speaking like a Prussian" if I was doing so in my hometown]), depending on the people I'm talking to.

I must say that I personally have never heard any speaker of proper Bavarian say "oh ja" meaning "doch". Sounds pretty unnatural and more like a bavarianised standard German term, just like saying "oh doch", which is just an emphasised form of "doch".

I hope this helps!

Daniel

 

[berndf]

I think by now the word "doch" is used much more than the good old "jo" among Bavarian speakers.

This is true for the parts of the Bavarian dialect area that today belong to Germany, which is roughly half, maybe a bit less. In other parts (mainly within in modern day Austria and Italy) doch is hardly ever used.