grape / raisin

elroy

elroy

Moderator: EHL, Arabic, Hebrew, German(-Spanish)
Chicago, IL
US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
Palestinian Arabic, like English, uses two totally unrelated words for "grape" and "raisin":

grape = عنبة [ʕinbe]
raisin = زبيبة [zbi:be]

(Standard Arabic uses the same words, just the pronunciation is different.)

What about other languages? Are the two words/terms related?
 
    • Hebrew: two unrelated terms.

    Grape: ענב (ʕenab, modern pronounce ʕenav, similar to Arabic and Aramaic)
    Raisin: צימוק (ṣimmuq, modern pronounce tzimuk, similar to Ugaritic and probably other Canaanite languages)
     
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    If you look up the term in a bilingual Spanish dictionary, you'll usually get at least these two terms for the same thing: uva pasa and the shortened form pasa.
    [Last minute edit: well, duh, I forgot to mention that both pasa and uva pasa are usually given in such dictionaries as equivalents of raisin, whereas grape is simply uva.]

    In Mexico, however, we usually call pasas or pasitas the small, black (or dark brownish/reddish) ones, whereas the larger, black ones are rather given the full name: uvas pasas.
    I'm a huge lover of both myself. 😎
     
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    Greek:

    Grape: «Σταφύλι» [s̠t̠a.ˈfi.li] (neut. nom. sing.), «σταφύλια» [s̠t̠a.ˈfi.ʎa] (neut. nom. pl.) < Byz. Gr. neut. diminutive «σταφύλι(ο)ν» staphýli(o)n of the Classical feminine noun «σταφυλή» stăpʰŭlḗ, zero grade of the Classical neuter noun «στέμφυλον» stémpʰŭlŏn --> mass of olives from which the oil has been pressed (no further etymology, a Pre-Greek group of words).

    Raisin: «Σταφίδα» [s̠t̠a.ˈfi.ða] (fem. nom. sing.), «σταφίδες» [s̠t̠a.ˈfi.ðe̞s̠] (fem. nom. pl.) < Classical 3rd declension feminine noun «ἀσταφίς» ăstăpʰís (nom. sing.), (var. «ὀσταφίς» ŏstăpʰís), «ἀσταφίδος» ăstăpʰídŏs (gen. sing.), later, «σταφίς, σταφίδος» stăpʰís (nom. sing.), stăpʰídŏs (gen. sing.) --> dried grape, raisin (etymologically speaking, the stem recalls «σταφυλή»; according to Beekes a typical substrate word, with prothetic vowel and variation α-/o-).
    סייבר־שד said:
    If you look up the term in a bilingual Spanish dictionary, you'll usually get at least these two terms for the same thing: uva pasa and the shortened form pasa.

    In Mexico, however, we usually call pasas or pasitas the small, black (or dark brownish/reddish) ones, whereas the larger, black ones are rather given the full name: uvas pasas.
    Click to expand...
    Here, the metonymy of «σταφίδα» is usually «σουλτανίνα» [s̠ul.t̠a.ˈni.na] (fem.), which is the most common raisin variation < It. sultanina --> golden-coloured raisin, from the golden-coloured grape, sultana.
    סייבר־שד said:
    I'm a huge lover of both myself. 😎
    Click to expand...
    Try raisins together with whole baked salted almonds...out of this world
     
    elroy said:
    What about other languages? Are the two words/terms related?
    Click to expand...
    In Russian they're unrelated at all.
    grape - виноград (vinográd) [vʲɪnɐ'grat], a proto-Slavic loan from a Germanic source (Gothic?);
    raisin - изюм (izyúm) [ɪ'zʲum], a much later loan (circa 15th century) from a Turkic source.
     
    Hungarian uses different words:

    grape: szőlő [ˈsøːløː] - it's an early loan from a Chuvash-type Turkic language

    raisin: mazsola [ˈmɒʒolɒ] - metathesis of 'malozsa', derived from Italian 'malvasia', a type of grape
     
    Slovak versions are quite close to each other

    grapes - hrozno (tantum plurale and a colloquial form of vinič)

    raisin - hrozienko (lit. little grape)
     
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    AndrasBP said:
    This is interesting because apparently both words are of Slavic origin but the middle of 'hrozienko' looks a lot like German 'Rosine'.
    Click to expand...
    This might be a common IE root, since also Czech has rozinky for raisins, Slovak being preserved or added the h.
     
    BCS:

    grape: grožđe (although there is also grozd which refers to a single grape)
    raisins: grožđice

    Slovene:

    grape: grozdje
    raisins: rozine
     
    In French:

    English grape = French raisin /ʁɛ.zɛ̃/:
    1626987867418-png.59690


    English raisin = French raisin sec /ʁɛ.zɛ̃ sɛk/ or raisin de Corinthe /ʁɛ.zɛ̃ də kɔ.ʁɛ̃t/:
    1626988116043-png.59692
     
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    apmoy70 said:
    Try raisins together with whole baked salted almonds...out of this world
    Click to expand...
    Thanks for the suggestion, will do! :)

    sound shift said:
    That's interesting, because in Sicily, which was of course controlled by the Arabs for a while, there's a variety of wine grape called "zibibbo", a word that wine writers say "may be of Arab origin".
    Click to expand...
    Henriette Walter and Bassam Baraké are of the same opinion, as you can see in their book "Arabesques, l'aventure de la langue arabe en occident".
     
    German:

    grape = (Wein-)traube
    raisin = Rosine

    Yendred said:
    English raisin = French raisin sec /ʁɛ.zɛ̃ sɛk/ or raisin de Corinthe /ʁɛ.zɛ̃ də kɔ.ʁɛ̃t/:
    1626988116043-png.59692
    Click to expand...

    Is this used for all raisins? Currant (Germ.: Korinthe) is a raisin from a special type of vine, namely Vitis vinifera apyrena from Greece.
     
    Frank78 said:
    Is this used for all raisins? Currant (Germ.: Korinthe) is a raisin from a special type of vine, namely Vitis vinifera apyrena from Greece.
    Click to expand...
    Indeed, "raisin sec" (lit. "dry raisin", since they are made by dehydrating fresh fruit) is the generic name, "raisin de Corinthe" being a specific variety of "raisin sec".
     
    Cymraeg/Welsh

    'grape'

    grawnwinen -     'wine grain' + fem. dim.
    gwinronyn- 'wine grain'
    grawnen - 'grain' + fem. dim.

    grepsen - < 'grape'
    grepan - < 'grape'

    All fem. except gwinronyn which is masc.

    _______________

    'raisin'

    resinen     - < 'resin' (Old Fr.)
    rhesinen - < 'resin' (Old Fr.) + fem. dim.

    Both fem.

    grawinwen wedi ei sychu
    grape after its drying
    'dry grape'

    grawn de Paris (14th century)
    grain of Paris
    'raisin'

    Both fem.

    See GPC Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru 'rhesin' for the 5 plur. forms.
     
    Mandarin:

    grape: 葡萄
    raisin: 葡萄干 (干 being a suffix for dried food)
     
    AndrasBP said:
    That's more likely, under the influence of 'hrozno'.
    Click to expand...
    Your guess was correct.

    Hrozno -> hrozienko is an example of folk etymology.

    I was a bit confused because that's a regular way of creating diminutives, compare okno (window) > okienko (small window).

    I'd also like to note that ia, ie, iu and ô (uo) always represents a sliding diphtong in Slovak.
     
    Yendred said:
    In French:

    English grape = French raisin /ʁɛ.zɛ̃/:
    1626987867418-png.59690


    English raisin = French raisin sec /ʁɛ.zɛ̃ sɛk/ or raisin de Corinthe /ʁɛ.zɛ̃ də kɔ.ʁɛ̃t/:
    1626988116043-png.59692
    Click to expand...
    To me, the generic term is raisin sec.

    The raisin de Corinthe is just a type of grape generally sold dried up, among others (for example: raisin Sultana). But from time to time they sell them as grapes too.
     
    apmoy70 said:
    Greek:

    Grape: «Σταφύλι» [s̠t̠a.ˈfi.li] (neut. nom. sing.), «σταφύλια» [s̠t̠a.ˈfi.ʎa] (neut. nom. pl.) < Byz. Gr. neut. diminutive «σταφύλι(ο)ν» staphýli(o)n of the Classical feminine noun «σταφυλή» stăpʰŭlḗ, zero grade of the Classical neuter noun «στέμφυλον» stémpʰŭlŏn --> mass of olives from which the oil has been pressed (no further etymology, a Pre-Greek group of words).
    ...
    Click to expand...
    Just wanted to add that in Tsakonian (the endangered MoGr dialect spoken by a few thousand people in the SE Peloponnese which is considered to be the sole MoGr dialect descending from the ancient Doric Greek dialect, the language of ancient Sparta), grape is «βότσε» [ˈvo̞.t̠͡s̠e̞] (masc.) < Ancient Greek «βότρυς» /ˈbot.rys/ (masc.) --> bunch of grapes, with tsitakism (etymologically speaking, it's a substrate word).

    In Pontic Greek (the Greek dialect spoken until the 1920's in the northern Turkish coast of the Black Sea) grape is «βοτρύδι» [vo̞ˈt̠ɾi.ði] (n.), from the Byzantine Greek neuter diminutive «βοτρύδι(ο)ν» /βoˈtry.ði(o)n/ of the Ancient Greek «βότρυς».
     
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    Swedish:
    Druva, vindruva - grape
    Russin - raisin
    Korint - currants, small dark raisins
    Sultanarussin - large pale raisins
    Druvklase - bunch/cluster of grapes
     
    Yendred said:
    In French:

    English grape = French raisin /ʁɛ.zɛ̃/:
    1626987867418-png.59690


    English raisin = French raisin sec /ʁɛ.zɛ̃ sɛk/ or raisin de Corinthe /ʁɛ.zɛ̃ də kɔ.ʁɛ̃t/:
    1626988116043-png.59692
    Click to expand...
    That is what I wondered about. We have that distinction in Dutch, between druiven (above) and rozijnen (dried grapes, which is of of course a variant of French 'raisin'), no other, except for groene (green, like above) and blauwe or rode (blue or red) druiven (grapes).
     
    The etymology of Swedish druva and Dutch druiven (also German Traube and English grape, and probably others) is interesting: it's cognate with troop and comes from a PIE root that meant cluster, gathering, since we speak of a bunch of grapes (so etymologically a "cluster of clusters" :rolleyes: )

    Note the overlap between English and French:
    bunch of grapes = grappe de raisin
    (in blue the term for cluster, and in red the name of the fruit)

    More generally, French grappe can mean any cluster or gathering.

    On the other hand, raisin comes, through Latin, from Greek ῥάξ, which already meant grapefruit.
     
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    Yendred said:
    The etymology of Swedish druva and Dutch druiven (also German Traube and English grape, and probably others) is interesting: it's cognate with troop and comes from a PIE root that meant cluster, gathering, since we speak of a bunch of grapes (so etymologically a "cluster of clusters" :rolleyes: )

    Note the overlap between English and French:
    bunch of grapes = grappe de raisin
    (in blue the term for cluster, and in red the name of the fruit)

    More generally, French grappe can mean any cluster or gathering.

    On the other hand, raisin comes, through Latin, from Greek ῥάξ, which already meant grapefruit.
    Click to expand...
    The Ancient Greek «ῥάξ» /r̥ɐːk͡s/ (nom. fem. sing.), «ῥᾱγός» /r̥ɐːˈgos/ (gen. fem. sing.) is cognate with Latin racēmus, an isolated word shared between the two languages (with no IE etymology, per Beekes the word is probably a Mediterranean Wanderwort). Interestingly, it was a common Macedonian word for describing a stalk for a cluster of grapes; where the mainstream Greek dialects would use «βοστρύχια» /boˈstry.kʰiɐ/ (plural neuter nominative of the masculine «βόστρυχος» /ˈbo.strykʰos/ cognate of «βότρυς») for it, in Macedonian the common word in usage was «ῥά(γ)ματα» /ˈr̥ɐ.(g)mɐtɐ/ (neut. nom. pl.)
    If related to Rrush the archaic name of Ragusa (present-day Dubrovnik) then it's a word found in Illyrian as well.

    In Modern Greek the word hasn't survived, bar its o-grade «ῥώξ» /ˈr̥ɔːk͡s/ (fem. nom. sing.), «ῥωγός» /r̥ɔːˈgos/ (fem. gen. sing.) > MoGr «ρώγα» /ˈɾo̞ɣa/ (also written as «ρόγα») --> a single berry of grape
    γραπε.jpeg

    or (colloq.) the nipple.
     
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    AutumnOwl said:
    Swedish:
    Druva, vindruva - grape
    Russin - raisin
    Korint - currants, small dark raisins
    Sultanarussin - large pale raisins
    Druvklase - bunch/cluster of grapes
    Click to expand...
    This reminded me of another word, next to rozijn (dried grapes): krent is the same as Korint, so I remember. , and it is the Northern Dutch variant of rozijn... [Just by the way: krenterig means something like thrifty but it may end up in stinginess...Because those people count the number of raisins in the bread or the cake...]
     
    Yendred said:
    More generally, French grappe can mean any cluster or gathering.
    Click to expand...
    The Swedish klase is also used about other clusters/bunches, for example blomklase. The name for the red elderberry in Swedish is druvfläder (grape elder), as both flowers and berries grow as a cluster.
     
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