Hablaste/Hablastes

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normaelena

Senior Member
USA Spanish
I am not sure if this has already been asked but where i work there are a lot of Mexicans and i always here them adding on that weird type of ending. Usually with ar verbs. Can anyone explain this to me

Por ejemplo:
Hablaste=Hablastes
Veniste=Venistes
Corriste=Corristes

I appreciate your help.
As it has been explained, it is incorrect. However, it is found in some of our very old literary works; El Amadis de Gaula is one of them.
 
  • brunoeuropa

    New Member
    argentina, español
    Hablastes o cantastes es forma del voseo muy común ......

    Por lo tanto, siendo voseo. no puede ser incorrecto como tal....

    Con respecto al voseo en general, encuentro una cierta ceguera por parte de quienes no lo usan....
    Evidentemente estas del lado de la gente que no usa el voseo. En Argentina vosean prácticamente todas las personas, y escuchar a alguien agregar una S al final de un verbo es irritante.
    Como dijo alguien mas arriba, es indistinto para gente con mayor o menor educación.

    Los otros días....
    Este me suena como un ejemplo mas parecido al "hablastes".

    Tambien esta el famoso "nos vamos a las casas".


    Bruno
     

    Milton Sand

    Senior Member
    Español (Colombia)
    Hi!
    People with a lower cultural level usually let themselves get confused about the ending of simple past conjugations for "tú" because of the final "s" of the present tense:

    Some voseo regions, like in Ocaña (colombian north-east), they end the conjugation in -"tes" instead of "-ste". That is because, centuries ago, "vos" (meaning plural you) has the conjugation of current "vosotros" (vos comisteis) and vos/vosotros were use as singular forms of adress.

    Tú comes / Vos comés (correct present tense)
    Tú/vos comistes (wrong tuteo/voseo past tense)
    Tú/vos comiste (correct past tense)
    Vos comites (arcaic origin)

    Like "comites", "comistes" is acceptable only as an arcaism for "vos/vosotros", not for "tú". I think this is the case of El Amadis de Gaula. Look at this examples taken from Don Quixote:

    Valerosos caballeros, (...) haciendo batalla con vosotros, (...) fablad y decidme punto por punto vuestra cuita; que aquí está en vuestra presencia el Caballero Desamorado, si nunca le oístes nombrar (...). (Fablad is currently hablad).

    -Por Dios -dijo otro-, que entendía que vuestro lugar se llamaba otra cosa, según hablastes de cortésmente al nombralle. Pero ¿qué lugar es la Argamesilla, que yo nunca le he oído decir?
    (Nombralle is currently nombrarle).

    Bye. ;)
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    Hablastes o cantastes es forma del voseo muy común que no tiene aceptación académica en ningún país
    I reckon it is accepted as the appropriate vos conjugation in Nicaragua, which is a tiny country compared to Argentina, of course.
    It's interesting to note that many Argentines are not aware that vos is widely used in Central America.

    Saludos,


    MarX
     

    MarySol

    New Member
    Portuguese / Brazil
    As far as know in Argentina, they use "vosotros", in a different way; see the verb hablar, for example, the rule is "vosotros hablasteis", but the Argentinians usually get rid of vowel i, resulting in "vosotros hablastes"... Maybe happens the same process in Mexico.
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    As far as know in Argentina, they use "vosotros", in a different way; see the verb hablar, for example, the rule is "vosotros hablasteis", but the Argentinians usually get rid of vowel i, resulting in "vosotros hablastes"... Maybe happens the same process in Mexico.
    Hi MarySol!

    Welcome to WR!

    You may take a look at this.

    Apparently there are a couple of threads here talking about the same topic, and this question will keep on surfacing from Spanish learners because forms like hablastes, dejastes, dijistes, comistes, etc. is something you encounter all over the Spanish speaking world.

    Salam,


    MarX
     

    Outsider

    Senior Member
    Portuguese (Portugal)
    MarySol said:
    As far as know in Argentina, they use "vosotros", in a different way; see the verb hablar, for example, the rule is "vosotros hablasteis", but the Argentinians usually get rid of vowel i, resulting in "vosotros hablastes"... Maybe happens the same process in Mexico.
    "Vosotros hablastes", or "vos hablastes"?
     

    NewdestinyX

    Senior Member
    American English
    What a thread.

    "hablastes" as many others have stated is wrong in every instance and nongrammatical. All linguistic bureaus -- even in voseo countries discount it as possible. Foreigners should never imitate it but also respect regional usage and not be arrogant about it.

    And I agree that it is not because of mixing up hablastes with hablasteis... but rather because all other 2nd person singular forms of Spanish verbs in Spanish end in '-s'. It's an easy mistake to make since as children learning a language we learn by repeating and mimicking patterns. Adding the -s to the end of 2nd pers sing preterite would be a very natural mistake for a child to make and then find difficult to unlearn.

    English speakers do this kind of things all the time by using words like:
    'Irregarless' for 'regardless' - 'irregardless' is not a word
    'Personificate' for 'personify' -- 'personificate' is not a word.

    But both 'non-words' above are based on learned patterns.

    If said enough they eventually become part of the language and even added to dictionaries.. This happened in the late 70's with the word 'prejudicial'. Which was never a word in any dictionary before then. English already had an adjective in the word "prejudiced". But to many an English ear -- we needed another word to nuance -- and many a native English speaker will try and define the nuance between --
    A prejudicial/prejudiced attitude -- but there really is no difference -- we just 'morphed' prejudiced into 'prejudicial' and now it's in the dictionary.

    2 things to take away from this thread --
    • "hablastes" in not a word in Spanish.
    • Millions of native speakers using something doesn't make it correct -- just used (incorrectly).

    Like English's "between you and I" = 100% incorrect - but used by millions. Learned by imitating another pattern.

    Chao,
    Grant
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    English speakers do this kind of things all the time by using words like:
    'Irregarless' for 'regardless' - 'irregardless' is not a word
    'Personificate' for 'personify' -- 'personificate' is not a word.

    But both 'non-words' above are based on learned patterns.

    If said enough they eventually become part of the language and even added to dictionaries.. This happened in the late 70's with the word 'prejudicial'. Which was never a word in any dictionary before then. English already had an adjective in the word "prejudiced". But to many an English ear -- we needed another word to nuance -- and many a native English speaker will try and define the nuance between --
    A prejudicial/prejudiced attitude -- but there really is no difference -- we just 'morphed' prejudiced into 'prejudicial' and now it's in the dictionary.

    2 things to take away from this thread --
    • "hablastes" in not a word in Spanish.
    • Millions of native speakers using something doesn't make it correct -- just used (incorrectly).

    Like English's "between you and I" = 100% incorrect - but used by millions. Learned by imitating another pattern.

    Chao,
    Grant
    In German you can say something like "unword" (Unwort). I don't know if "unword" is an Unwort in English or not.

    Based on your definition there would be loads of incorrect words used in English, many of which native speakers aren't aware of at all.
    Things like "It's just me" or "She's taller than me".
    But I get what you mean. :)

    Even though I don't criticize anybody using -stes, I'll try to advise new learners to stick to -ste because it would spare them from a lot of fuss.

    Saludos,


    MarX
     

    avivir

    Member
    USA, English
    I disagree that this form is necessarily vulgar. In my home we know exactly what we are saying and we use such forms between intimate family and friends. It is like "baby talk" but better. It's just another example of how Spanish is superior in having ways of changing the words themselves to show deeper meanings. It's also an example of how MOST of the Spanish-speaking world is not as homogenized and boring as the USA.
    I was born in southern Ohio a stone's throw from Appalachia. When I use certain "incorrect" structures and words while speaking with family back home on the phone, it's a way of showing I haven't forgotton where I came from, or how close I feel to them. We are not ignorant or vulgar. Rather, these are colloquialisms.
    Certain forms of speaking are not inherently inferior just because they are more predominant among people of a certain darker skin tone or from a certain place.
    We all need to learn the STANDARD form in school and be capable of writing and speaking in that way for formal situations. But let's drop the racist/classist attitude that any other form is incorrect and has no place in the language.
    Would you really want Spanish-speaking people in all regions and from all different types of backgrounds to be identical to each other? Isn't language just like food? Sometimes a formal restaurant is great, and we should all be trained how to eat in one. But sometimes, especially when you're with the people you love the most in the world, don't you just want a taco?
     

    NewdestinyX

    Senior Member
    American English
    I disagree that this form is necessarily vulgar. In my home we know exactly what we are saying and we use such forms between intimate family and friends. It is like "baby talk" but better. It's just another example of how Spanish is superior in having ways of changing the words themselves to show deeper meanings. It's also an example of how MOST of the Spanish-speaking world is not as homogenized and boring as the USA.
    I was born in southern Ohio a stone's throw from Appalachia. When I use certain "incorrect" structures and words while speaking with family back home on the phone, it's a way of showing I haven't forgotton where I came from, or how close I feel to them. We are not ignorant or vulgar. Rather, these are colloquialisms.
    Certain forms of speaking are not inherently inferior just because they are more predominant among people of a certain darker skin tone or from a certain place.
    We all need to learn the STANDARD form in school and be capable of writing and speaking in that way for formal situations. But let's drop the racist/classist attitude that any other form is incorrect and has no place in the language.
    Would you really want Spanish-speaking people in all regions and from all different types of backgrounds to be identical to each other? Isn't language just like food? Sometimes a formal restaurant is great, and we should all be trained how to eat in one. But sometimes, especially when you're with the people you love the most in the world, don't you just want a taco?
    No one's taking a classist position. We're just establishing what's correct and incorrect within the standard that even you referred to. Certainly colloquialisms exist. Some more vulgar than others. But for those who are learning the language they shouldn't try to imitate something incorrect. That's the main point. What a native uses amongst family and for what reasons is their business. But what 'should' be used to speak 'correctly' is the topic of the thread as I've read it thru and looked at the original question.

    Chao,
    Grant
     

    Teachy

    Senior Member
    Argentina , Spanish and English
    Hi,
    I´m argentine and let me tell you that in my country it is not a matter of being formal or informal, but....using the language incorrectly due to ignoring the correct use ( being ignorant of the language...not uneducated , which certainly is not the same) . It is not well seen to say FUISTES...LLEGASTES...it´s just like saying SIENTENSEN instead of SIENTENSE... no N is needed at the end of the word .
    When speaking , nobody will correct you, of course that would be rude, but everybody will realize it is not correct, unless you have no knowledge at all of the language you are speaking.

    As regards voseo one should say: "Vos fuiste a la fiesta? Vos viniste ? no s is needed either. Voseo it´s because we say VOS instead of TU

    From my point of view one can try to merge with a group of people to feel accepted and more comfortable, but bad habits...should be left aside...!!
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    I disagree that this form is necessarily vulgar. In my home we know exactly what we are saying and we use such forms between intimate family and friends. It is like "baby talk" but better.
    This is not the first time I read that the forms with -S is used to show closeness.

    Hi,
    I´m argentine and let me tell you that in my country it is not a matter of being formal or informal, but....using the language incorrectly due to ignoring the correct use ( being ignorant of the language...not uneducated , which certainly is not the same) . It is not well seen to say FUISTES...LLEGASTES...it´s just like saying SIENTENSEN instead of SIENTENSE... no N is needed at the end of the word .
    When speaking , nobody will correct you, of course that would be rude, but everybody will realize it is not correct, unless you have no knowledge at all of the language you are speaking.

    As regards voseo one should say: "Vos fuiste a la fiesta? Vos viniste ? no s is needed either. Voseo it´s because we say VOS instead of TU

    From my point of view one can try to merge with a group of people to feel accepted and more comfortable, but bad habits...should be left aside...!!
    That's the thing with a language which has hundreds of millions of native speakers in more than a dozen countries. It has many variations.
    For someone from Argentina, or perhaps most of native Spanish speakers, -stes is seen as a bad habit, for others, it is something used among family and friends, for others, it is seen as the original form of voseo, etc.
    I think it is quite important in language usage, especially such a huge one like Spanish, to keep this in mind, and to explain to the learners that they may encounter this and that, and to show them which one(s) is/are considered acceptable in most cases.
    That's why I said that I wouldn't criticize someone who uses -stes, since I don't know his/her background, or why (s)he uses it, but I'll point out to him/her, that -ste is more widely accepted and in fact considered as the standard by most Spanish speakers, and that in most situations it's better to stick to that.

    Saludos,


    MarX
     

    etelberta

    Member
    Argentina-castellano o español (?!)
    I totally agree with MarX

    No one should feel discriminated in any way just because in other people's experience a certain form is considered 'wrong'.
    In Argentina, a non-native speaker should be advised never to use this form in any situation, for it is considered to be plainly wrong.
    A well known Reggaeton song reads 'tu me dejasteS caer...' The S is obviously denoting a certain social procedence, it´s a colloquial form of the verb.
    When I first heard that song it reminded me of this debate. That use souds nice to some argentines in that song, while it is just disgusting to be heard if uttered by a fellow coutryman.
     

    Idiomático

    Senior Member
    Latin American Spanish
    I totally agree with MarX

    No one should feel discriminated in any way just because in other people's experience a certain form is considered 'wrong'.
    In Argentina, a non-native speaker should be advised never to use this form in any situation, for it is considered to be plainly wrong.
    A well known Reggaeton song reads 'tu me dejasteS caer...' The S is obviously denoting a certain social procedence, it´s a colloquial form of the verb.
    When I first heard that song it reminded me of this debate. That use souds nice to some argentines in that song, while it is just disgusting to be heard if uttered by a fellow coutryman.
    I find this comment particularly interesting. I fully agree with it, but insofar as it pertains to the use of the form in Argentina I must say that I hear the tes ending most frequently precisely in the mouths of Argentine acquaintances who are college educated, exceptionally urbane, and professional wordsmiths to boot. What is all the more fascinating is that although they use it constantly in conversation, they never write it. I've known these people for decades and the phenomenon has never stopped surprising me because, as this forero says, it is considered lowbrow ("...a certain social procedence...") throughout the Spanish-speaking world. Until now I thought it was part of the Argentine way of speaking.
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    I find this comment particularly interesting. I fully agree with it, but insofar as it pertains to the use of the form in Argentina I must say that I hear the tes ending most frequently precisely in the mouths of Argentine acquaintances who are college educated, exceptionally urbane, and professional wordsmiths to boot. What is all the more fascinating is that although they use it constantly in conversation, they never write it. I've known these people for decades and the phenomenon has never stopped surprising me because, as this forero says, it is considered lowbrow ("...a certain social procedence...") throughout the Spanish-speaking world. Until now I thought it was part of the Argentine way of speaking.
    Thank you Idiomático.

    You shed new light into the matter.

    The use of -tes may be considered lowbrow in most (just an assumption) of Spanish speaking world, yet in some societies (not necessarily uneducated) it is perceived as relaxed speaking.
    It's interesting how many said that they say -tes among family and friends, and would find it even awkward omitting the -S in informal situations.



    Another thing that escaped me was the logic behind -tes.
    "Hablastes" is by no means unusual. I hear it all the time, and what's more, I think I have said it myself, though I'm not sure.

    It's funny, in Classical Latin this form was already the only one for 2nd person singular not ending with 's', as you can check here :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_conjugation

    I wouldn't be surprised to know that this "hablaste"/"hablastes" question dates back to Vulgar Latin, and that "hablastes" has been regularly rebuked by grammarians all these centuries to keep the similarity with Latin. It would be interesting to know how the corresponding form is said in other Romance languages, but neither French nor Catalan have forms derived from "amavisti".
    Portuguese is just like Spanish in this regard, including the tendency to add that spurious -s: falastes :cross: falaste :tick:
    Based on the fact that -tes exists in basically the whole Spanish speaking world and even Portuguese, it is probable that the adding of the -S already existed in Vulgar Latin times.
    I know that we should stick to the tradition (although fact is, the Romance languages are descended from Vulgar Latin), but I think someone who applies the logic by adding the -S shouldn't be called stupid at all.
    After all, many modern sciences are based on logical thinking, aren't they?



    I'd like to assure you all that I am not promoting -tes, yet I try not to pass judgment upon those who use it. And as I said, I think the best way is to explain the students about the situation and the reactions they may get from using -tes, and give them a fair, non-judgmental advice.

    Saludos,


    MarX
     

    NewdestinyX

    Senior Member
    American English
    Another thing that escaped me was the logic behind -tes.
    Based on the fact that -tes exists in basically the whole Spanish speaking world and even Portuguese, it is probable that the adding of the -S already existed in Vulgar Latin times.
    I know that we should stick to the tradition (although fact is, the Romance languages are descended from Vulgar Latin), but I think someone who applies the logic by adding the -S shouldn't be called stupid at all.
    After all, many modern sciences are based on logical thinking, aren't they?

    I'd like to assure you all that I am not promoting -tes, yet I try not to pass judgment upon those who use it. And as I said, I think the best way is to explain the students about the situation and the reactions they may get from using -tes, and give them a fair, non-judgmental advice.
    My only problem with this line of thinking and rationalizing of its use, is that the same "logic" could be used to try and prove uses like 'brung' and 'dived' in English. If you open this can of worms it can get very messy. -TES, is learned in childhood by natives just like young children in English accidentally say 'brung'. It should be corrected by parents raising their children and, for the most part, is not used by the educated that I've talked to or read in books. I can use 'brung' to 'sound' a certain way for 'affect' -- but it's not a serious or even conversational usage. It's interesting to me that this thread has gone on so long. :)

    Grant
     

    etelberta

    Member
    Argentina-castellano o español (?!)
    What is all the more fascinating is that although they use it constantly in conversation, they never write it. I've known these people for decades and the phenomenon has never stopped surprising me because, as this forero says, it is considered lowbrow ("...a certain social procedence...") throughout the Spanish-speaking world. Until now I thought it was part of the Argentine way of speaking.

    True, you may hear it. Pronunciation varies throughout the country.
    Never to be used during a lecture, and of course never to be written, this form might be heard in everyday conversation! If corrected, the person who used it would probabily agree with you that (s)he's made a mistake.

    "a certain social procedence" means exactly that. I didn't say it was lowbrow, it's just considered grammatically incorrect among those who I live with. I live in Buenos Aires city, and we never use the -tes ending, not even at home.

    You may also hear educated peope from San Miguel de Tucumán say: "Si te querés ir, ite [andate, verb ir, 2nd person singular vos]". Again, if corrected, they would agree that this form is ungrammatical.

    By the way, of which part of Argentina are these people you know, Idiomático? If they are from BA, I give up.
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    My only problem with this line of thinking and rationalizing of its use, is that the same "logic" could be used to try and prove uses like 'brung' and 'dived' in English. If you open this can of worms it can get very messy. -TES, is learned in childhood by natives just like young children in English accidentally say 'brung'. It should be corrected by parents raising their children and, for the most part, is not used by the educated that I've talked to or read in books. I can use 'brung' to 'sound' a certain way for 'affect' -- but it's not a serious or even conversational usage. It's interesting to me that this thread has gone on so long. :)

    Grant
    As I said, I'm not promoting the use of -tes.
    I'm just saying that we should have more understanding towards the huge Spanish language.

    Just because I reenforce what some native Speakers said about -tes being the familiar way of speaking in informal situations, doesn't mean that I encourage learners to use it themselves.

    It's just that you cannot come to the friends and family of Irisheyes or avivir or some other Spanish speakers and pass a judgment saying that they speak wrong, although that's rather one's own decision, I admit. But to implant such way of thinking upon learners of Spanish would be rather unfair, don't you think?


    I do realize that the Romance languages in general tend to be prescriptive instead of descriptive, which is a paradoxical fact remembering that they are the result of developments of Vulgar Latin.
    Again, I'm not saying that Spanish should be reformed everytime there is a change in the spoken language.
    It's just that I believe in some cases it would be better to separate language usage, which includes the oral usage, from prescriptive grammar.
    In the case of -tes, the debate has probably been going on for centuries now.


    I know I sound vague. But I hope you get my point here. :)



    Kind regards,


    MarX
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    You may also hear educated peope from San Miguel de Tucumán say: "Si te querés ir, ite [andate, verb ir, 2nd person singular vos]". Again, if corrected, they would agree that this form is ungrammatical.
    Ite may be incorrect, depending on what measure you use, but it is not ungrammatical. Do you see the difference between incorrect and ungrammatical here?
    By the way, ite is also used in Central America, where, as far as I know, it is not considered standard, either.

    But I'm getting off topic here.
    Anyone who wishes to reply to this may create a new thread. :)

    Saludos,


    MarX
     

    NewdestinyX

    Senior Member
    American English
    In the case of -tes, the debate has probably been going on for centuries now.

    I know I sound vague. But I hope you get my point here. :)

    Kind regards,
    MarX
    MarX,
    I think I do understand what you are saying. All 'descriptive grammar' books should refer to this 'vulgar' usage. It helps any student understand what they are hearing. But its usage is very, very, uncommon and rare amongst the educated people anywhere in the Spanish speaking world. In a few recent posts people attempted to assign a 'logic' to its use and even tried to point to its origin in Vulgar Latin. That's going too far for me in trying to make a point -- as there really isn't any grammatical precedent for it being considered in any way normative in the Spanish language.

    So we don't pass judgement ON people who use it.. But we 'do' judge it as a usage. And on a learning forum like this they are mostly 'students' of language. And they should never learn to use it -- even if you spend a year in the house of an Argentinian family that uses it. The student should never imitate it. This is different than living in places that would say -- Espero que te gustara.... instead of the 'correct' Espero que te haya gustado.... There are regional differences there that can be imitated by a student depending on the region. But '-tes' is very bad grammar and shouldn't be promoted in a learning forum as 'acceptable grammar'. That's been my frustration in reading some arguments here -- the attempt to make is 'logically correct'. It is not correct in any situation in any country. All languages have things people say that are just wrong -- as I said, in English, with 'between you and I' -- completely incorrect but used by so many people. There are some people that can't even explain why it's wrong. But a foreigner should always say "between you and me" no matter how much they hear the other one.

    I think we agree more than we disagree, MarX.

    Thanks for your thoughts,
    Grant
     

    Idiomático

    Senior Member
    Latin American Spanish
    True, you may hear it. Pronunciation varies throughout the country.
    Never to be used during a lecture, and of course never to be written, this form might be heard in everyday conversation! If corrected, the person who used it would probabily agree with you that (s)he's made a mistake.

    "a certain social procedence" means exactly that. I didn't say it was lowbrow, it's just considered grammatically incorrect among those who I live with. I live in Buenos Aires city, and we never use the -tes ending, not even at home.

    You may also hear educated peope from San Miguel de Tucumán say: "Si te querés ir, ite [andate, verb ir, 2nd person singular vos]". Again, if corrected, they would agree that this form is ungrammatical.

    By the way, of which part of Argentina are these people you know, Idiomático? If they are from BA, I give up.
    In this context, a certain social procedence means, at least to me, that one can discern the speaker's social stratum in his or her speech. Am I wrong? In all the Spanish-speaking countries I've visited, people who say hablastes, comistes, fuistes, etc., or who use other grammatically incorrect forms of speech, are generally the less educated members of society (lowbrow = not cultured, per the OED). That is why I am surprised to hear genteel, educated, urbane Argentines use that form. What would you say is their social procedence? I've never been in Argentina, so I don't know.
     

    Idiomático

    Senior Member
    Latin American Spanish
    In this context, a certain social procedence means, at least to me, that one can discern the speaker's social stratum in his or her speech. Am I wrong? In all the Spanish-speaking countries I've visited, people who say hablastes, comistes, fuistes, etc., or who use other grammatically incorrect forms of speech, are generally the less educated members of society (lowbrow = not cultured, per the OED). That is why I am surprised to hear genteel, educated, urbane Argentines use that form. What would you say is their social procedence? I've never been in Argentina, so I don't know.
    Incidentally, it just occurred to me that there is no such thing as procedence in English. I take it you mean origin, perhaps provenance.
     

    kidika

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Castilla
    A mi se me quedó grabada (más o menos) una frase que aparecía en el libro de Lengua del Instituto: "Lenguaje culto es aquel que sabe cambiar de registro idiomático", es decir que dependiendo del contexto en el que estemos usamos un registro más formal, coloquial, vulgar...what have you. Por ejemplo, si siempre habláramos de manera culta igual seríamos unos pedantes... So I agree 100% with you irisheyes0583 :)

    But having said that, decir "tú hablastes" a mi me suena mal y no lo usaría en un contexto vulgar o informal o coloquial. Pero tengo que reconocer que muchííííísima gente de por aquí lo dice y no son gente necesariamente inculta.
    Creo que estamos delante de otra evolución del lenguaje que no sabemos si acabará cuajando o desaparecerá o qué.
    Love linguistics!:p
    Saludos darlingcill@s!
     

    etelberta

    Member
    Argentina-castellano o español (?!)
    I totally agree with MarX
    A well known Reggaeton song reads 'tu me dejasteS caer...' The S is obviously denoting a certain social procedence, it´s a colloquial form of the verb.
    When I first heard that song it reminded me of this debate. That use souds nice to some argentines in that song, while it is just disgusting to be heard if uttered by a fellow coutryman.
    Me entienden mejor cuando escribo en español, ¿no? :) ¡Así debe ser! Yo seguía hablando de la persona que redactó la letra de la canción, que NO ES de mi país, sino de Puerto Rico. No tengo idea de si el uso de esa forma verbal se considera lowbrow en Puerto Rico, ni de si está mal visto. Me expresé mal; lo que quise decir es que, si bien yo no sé cómo reaccionan los compatriotas de Daddy Yankee cuando lo escuchan decir "tú me dejasteS caer", sé muy bien cómo reaccionan en mi país.

    Al menos lo sabía hasta HOY.

    Saludos
     

    Idiomático

    Senior Member
    Latin American Spanish
    Me entienden mejor cuando escribo en español, ¿no? :) ¡Así debe ser! Yo seguía hablando de la persona que redactó la letra de la canción, que NO ES de mi país, sino de Puerto Rico. No tengo idea de si el uso de esa forma verbal se considera lowbrow en Puerto Rico, ni de si está mal visto. Me expresé mal; lo que quise decir es que, si bien yo no sé cómo reaccionan los compatriotas de Daddy Yankee cuando lo escuchan decir "tú me dejasteS caer", sé muy bien cómo reaccionan en mi país.

    Al menos lo sabía hasta HOY.

    Saludos
    Pues ya tienes la respuesta porque, aunque nunca lo había oído nombrar, soy compatriota de Daddy Yankee. Y la respuesta a tu pregunta sobre la procedencia de los argentinos que dicen (aunque no escriben) hablastes, fuistes, vinistes: Buenos Aires y Córdoba.
     

    etelberta

    Member
    Argentina-castellano o español (?!)
    De Córdoba lo sabía, de Buenos Aires, confieso que no. En la Capital (Ciudad de Buenos Aires), no se usa, doy fe.
    En algún contexto social debe haber una cierta "licencia" para usar esa forma; si no, el rumbero antes mencionado no lo habría hecho. Todo nos lleva a la misma conclusión: las gramáticas consideran incorrecto el uso de la desinencia -tes, pero, en algunas regiones, algunos grupos la utilizan en contextos más o menos familiares.

    No recomendaría que se enseñara esa forma verbal a un estudiante de español. Para él, es mucho más seguro usar lo que los libros consideran correcto, porque a fin de cuentas a nadie le resulta molesto que se omita la -s.
     

    Wyzguy

    Senior Member
    English - US
    Hola a todo los foros, buenas noches!

    Yo tengo una duda y no seguro si alguien podría ayudame. Mi pregunta es cuando chateando con mis amigos latinos en msn siempre se usan un "s" como la útlima letra en el pretérito.

    Ejemplos:

    En mi libro de verbos es:
    Hiciste, hablaste, entendiste

    Pero en chat siempre se usan"
    Hicistes, hablastes, entendistes

    Por favor se puede alguien lo explicarme?

    Gracias de antemano
    Wyz
     

    dinis.dinis

    Senior Member
    USA/English
    Hi Wyz!

    As far as I remember the form with final 's' was correct in the period before the Renaissance when grammatical purist decided to suppress the final 's' in imitation of the 2nd pers. sing. preterite forms of Classical Latin.

    You still see this final 's' in Modern Literary French: AIMÂTES for AMASTE!

    But in Spanish the 's' survives mainly in rather conservative rural dialects and exhibits a higher incidence of usage among the uneducated/unschooled. Is it not recommended for use by non-natives unless you intend to sound humorous!

    Best Regards,
    Dinis
     

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    Hi Wyzguy!

    Apparently the -stes ending has its origin already in Vulgar Latin period, and it survives in French (where final -s ceased to be pronounced), Spanish, and Portuguese (especially in the spoken language).

    The ending -stes is heard in practically every Hispanic country, yet some consider it vulgar.

    Saludos
     

    Wyzguy

    Senior Member
    English - US
    Hi Wyzguy!

    Apparently the -stes ending has its origin already in Vulgar Latin period, and it survives in French (where final -s ceased to be pronounced), Spanish, and Portuguese (especially in the spoken language).

    The ending -stes is heard in practically every Hispanic country, yet some consider it vulgar.

    Saludos

    Muchísimas Gracias a todos por las respuestas, ahora esta forma es mas claro y entiendo todas las explicaciones!
     
    That s ending is considered incorrect, even uneducated, nowadays.
    Nonetheless, it's still used by many people in many regions.
    Avoid it.

    Acá en Chile no lo hacemos de esa manera. Para nosotros es "amaste" , "comiste", "jugaste" , etc.

    Saludos.
    Como los chilenos se comen las eses, pues no tendria sentido que incluyeran una donde realmente no debe ir.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:

    MarX

    Banned
    Indonesian, Indonesia
    jajajaja, That's true. We say "La cordillera de Lo Ande" instead of "Los Andes"

    I did't think We went known for that :p.
    Chileans are not the only ones.
    Panamanians, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans, Dominicans, Cubans, Puerto Ricans and Southern Spaniards generally speak like that.

    Here is a thread.

    And another.
     

    jmx

    Senior Member
    Spain / Spanish
    As far as I remember the form with final 's' was correct in the period before the Renaissance when grammatical purist decided to suppress the final 's' in imitation of the 2nd pers. sing. preterite forms of Classical Latin.
    This information is very interesting for me. Can you recall any clue about where you heard or read it ?
     

    romuloVG

    Member
    Costa Rican Spanish
    Hola a todo los foros, buenas noches!

    Yo tengo una duda y no seguro si alguien podría ayudame. Mi pregunta es cuando chateando con mis amigos latinos en msn siempre se usan un "s" como la útlima letra en el pretérito.

    Ejemplos:

    En mi libro de verbos es:
    Hiciste, hablaste, entendiste

    Pero en chat siempre se usan"
    Hicistes, hablastes, entendistes

    Por favor se puede alguien lo explicarme?

    Gracias de antemano
    Wyz

    El uso en realidad tendría que ver con el voseo. Las desinencias voseantes eliminaron el diptongo etimológico:
    Vos cantasteis, comisteis, partisteis > vos cantastes, comistes, partistes.

    Sin embargo ocurre algo curioso, al menos en el español de Costa Rica, donde existe la tendencia de usar las desinencias sin "s" (aunque no sean etimológicas para el voseo)=
    vos cantaste, comiste, partiste.

    Y, por otro lado, los hablantes de algunas variantes tuteantes, utilizan las formas con "s" final:
    tú cantastes, comistes, partistes.

    Por último, en Costa Rica existe vacilación en cuanto al uso. Algunos hablantes utilizan la forma desinencial sin "s", y otros la forma con "s".
     

    Berrocal98

    Senior Member
    Spain, Spanish, Catalan
    Yo siempre he estudiado que esa "s" final es incorrecta. La forma correcta es "cantaste" "comiste" "partiste", y que es un error muy común en algunas zonas (al igual que lo puede ser el laísmo o el leísmo)
     
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