China has a recorded history of about 6,000 years. In its long long history, it had invaded other countries or had many smaller countries as its tributary states. On the other hand, since 1840, China became a semi-feudal and semi-colonial country and China was to a large extent invaded. In the World War II, it was invaded by Japan. Nowadays, the political relationship between China and Japan is very bad. What is worse, many people in both countries loathe the other country. Here arise my questions (a lot ): Many countries have a history as invador or occupied territory (or both) of their neighbours. How has this coloured their subsequent relations? Do you think that they have successfully put their history behind them and looked forward? What actions are necessary, on a national and individual basis, for countries to put their past behind them and form a strong bond with each other? What are examples of countries which have done this successfully? How many years, or generations, does it take for countries to overcome their history? Do they need outside assistance to achieve this? What sort of assistance? To which point can this country be considered having "overcome this history", as an invador or an invadee? You can choose one specific question to answer, but please keep in mind that it's not an invitation to air old grievance. At last, I want to say "thank you" to Chaska, Emma and daoxunchang for providing me with excellent suggestions! Edit: I edited my post according to CrazyIvan's suggestion.Thank you! And I apologize if my previous words, clearly missending my intention as planned, offend anyone.
In Europe it is a bit different. We cannot care about this subjets because it could be madness. During 2000 years of history we have and have been invaded so many times by the neighbours that really we don't care this. If you read the history of Europe only during the two last centuries (19-20th) you will see what I try to say.
Every country has either been invaded or has invaded other countries. Most countries have done both at some stage in their history. Governments frequently encourage fear of their neighbours to distract the people's attention from internal problems.
This topic is very interesting, but is too 'current' for me to contribute to with any degree of certainty that I wouldn't raise the hackles of some people (and I'm not talking about panjandrum!) The relationsips between Britain/the United Kingdom and Ireland are a tangled, complicated and fraught lot which cannot be answered in a series of replies to 8, 80 or even 800 questions. I hope other Irish forer@s can be forebearing enough to avoid diving in feet first here.
Portugal invaded and was invaded by many countries throughout history, but it was mostly all a long time ago. We don't really relate to such ancient events. The only recent example I can think of are the colonial wars in Africa and Asia (East Timor), which ended in 1974. Many people who fought in those wars are still alive. But since this is a case of invading, rather than being invaded, I don't think it's what you're asking for. If I may hijack the conversation just a little bit, why is the memory of the Japanese invasion of China still so strong in the minds of the Chinese? Many European countries were also invaded during World War II, but I don't think the French still feel any animosity towards the Germans because of that, today (though I'm not so sure about Eastern Europeans, who had it much worse). And are you sure that the Japanese give as much importance to that event as many Chinese seem to, nowadays?
And that's what confuses me most when reading European history! You seem not care about being invaded, but how about the two World Wars? And Napoleon?
The Japanese government deliberately hides the facts from its people, but I believe they pay attention to it. As you know, the relationship between Korea and Japan is also bad due to the fact that Japan denies that it was playing invader. Rather, it emphasizes that it was also victim. I think that's off-topic, so I will stop here. And I'd like to hear the opinions of our Japanese friends on this forum.
Portugal had only a small (and ultimately counterproductive) participation in World War I, and was nominally neutral in World War II. We were never invaded during those wars. That was a very long time ago!
Maybe because nazis did not treat in the same way French and Eastern Europeans. concentration camps were full of Jews in the first place, and then Slavs and other Eastern and Southern Europeans. Remember where were concentration camps located... EDIT: Everything depends on the grade of atrocities committed during a bellic conflict. In my ex country, during the WWII there were many atrocities, and they were never forgotten, so, the desastrous result of this "memory" came 50 years later and brought even more atrocities....
All that is finished and happened long long time ago. I don't think we should care that a certain piece of territory was ever invaded although we are living in it nowadays (this is by chance) but of what the wars did to people... to avoid repeating those atrocities. The other thing looks like nationalistish... ¡Olé!
It seems that you have all had put the bitter history behind, and TIME seems to play the part. You forget it, and then it is long long time ago. BUT, many many victims still live today without receiving an apology from the Japanese government. That's why Chinese people don't want to forgive Japan. How do you think about this? Germany apologized, doesn't it? However, human beings have a really long history, and invaders rarely apologized after defeated in the past. They just surrendered or retreated. It didn't take an "apology" for the invaded to forget the history. Do yout think it's due to the civilization of humans or what? And in today's world, does apology matter? Note: I gave the example of Japan not to seek sympathy, but just give an example. I don't want to quarrel with anyone.
Canadian territory has not been invaded in its entire history. Nor have we invaded anyone. But we are a small country isolated from everyone except the U.S. so that is understandable. However when we were a British colony there were a couple of wars between the British, French, and Americans on what is now Canadian soil.
The problem is when countries deny their questionable acts to protect their own honor. When all parties admit wrongdoing and remorse for atrocities, people eventually forget about the conflict. But how would post WWII history have been different if West Germany denied that Germans had ever persecuted Jews and eastern Europeans beyond what is to be expected in a normal war? And if Adenauer, Brandt, and Kohl regularly paid visits to the graves of Nazi soldiers "to respect those who died for our country"? Do you think that countries in Europe would be so friendly to Germany today? That is what is happening in East Asia. Japan only admits that there was a war, and apologizes 'if they caused any harm', but they fail to recognize the atrocities they committed on civilians and POWs. And high-ranking government officials continue to visit graves where WWII soldiers are buried.
India, to my knowledge has never invaded anyone. But, they have been invaded by pretty much everything. Many people still hold a grudge. I for one am annoyed whenever I discuss it, but I suck it up and get over it quickly. Nothing can be done about it now...just hope for progress!
Well, there was the case of Goa, Damão and Diu, in the sixties, although I suppose that would take us into the muddy waters of what "invasion" means...
Unfortunately, I just have no time for writing a looong answer to this, but I can think right now of a very good (seems to be good, at least!) example. It's Russian-Estonian/Latvian relationships. The point is that Latvia, Lithuania and Estonis joined the Soviet Union not so deliberately as some other countries do. In fact, in Latvia and Estonia people tend to think that their countries were actually forced into the Soviet Union. So these three countries (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) were the first to leave the Union in 1991. But the decades of Soviet reign has left the most bitter feelings, and now Estonia and Latvia don't show much friendliness towards the Russians who still live in these countries. I don't know much about the actual situation in Latvia, but a friend of mine lives in Tallinn, and fron her words I know that Estonian government has introduced, for instance, a state exam in Estonian, which is absolutely obligatory... Let alone the situation with the so-called Estonian Legion. It's really scary!
I'm not going to say you are an agitator or propagandist, but I thought this place was supposed to be for cultural discussion and you are almost talking political things, if you continue like this it's going to be very unhealthy unless you are irrelevant to this direct topic (china vs. japan) because it's a very current political issue. And I don't want to be unhealthy here, so I'm going to stay away from this thread. I will read though if somebody post.
Yeah, in 1982 my country Argentina, invaded UK. Well… as a matter of fact it was 2 small islands belonging to UK. … and located about 10.000 miles from UK. …but only 400 miles from Argentina ….and situated on Argentinean sea. UK recuperated these islands after a short war. Sorry, now I think about it, I’m not sure it was really what we can say properly an invasion.
I saw a great movie which discussed (in the background) the war over these islands...it was called "la guerra interna"
Well, if I had to list the countries which have invaded Spain or those which have invaded Spain I would say that UNO countries would apply. To list only "permanent" situations: Spain has invaded: All American current nations (except Canada) All W Europe, except England (we did a good try) and Scandinavia All Maghreb In Africa: Eq Guinea In Asia: Philippines Last time: Spain abandoned W Sahara in 1975 Spain has been invaded by: All W Europe All Maghreb + Arabs Last time: UK maintains Gibraltar. Before: Nap's invasion in 1808-12.
We were the masters of Europe (Roman Empire under Traianus). But we were also a people settled in hundreds of cities, counties, states and so on. Up to the Second World War we got Ethiopia, Somalia, Libya, Eritrea in the Italian colonial empire.
Coconut, I’m surprised seeing how many “ethnic differences” you have in Asia. And surely you’d be also surprised knowing most of my countrymen can’t differentiate Asians and call all people who have Asian appearance as “chino”.
The same thing with Russians. Frankly, it was only at the University that I learned to differentiate Chinese and Korean people...
It's good to see (once again) that the present generation in Russia admits that the Soviet Union in fact invaded the Baltic countries at the end of WW2. The only one of these small nations that stayed independent were the Finns. But we had to give an important part of our small country to the largest country of the world. That's why many Finns (more or less hidden) hate or despise the Russians, even if the invasion wasn't a fault of the Russian people but the communist system. On the other hand, Finns and Russians had reasonably good relations during the Russian occupation 1809-1917. And we're only a little bit suspicious about the Swedes who kept us under their power for more than six centuries. "How many years, or generations, does it take for countries to overcome their history?" I'd say at least four generations, a hundred years, maybe more. An invader can forget sooner, the invaded much later. Some people never forget. Maybe some of them are right, like the Jews.
No, not really. Some people use to call "chinita/chinito" to children. It’s rather a pejorative way to call them. But that have not a real relation with Asian people at all.
Hi Hakro, you know, I'm actually learning Finnish as my minor. And this Christmas I saw a Finnish film (don't remember it's title, unfortunately) set up at the beginning of the 20th century. I must admit that at first this film seemed to me almost an Anti-Russian one; imagine how surprised I was when - it was by the end of the movie - I realised that in fact it wasn't Anti-Russian! On the contrary, the film was really friendly... It's so sad to hear that many Finns hate Russians! I'm sure that most Russians don't approve the Soviet policy of expantion. I myself strongly dislike the Communists, and I am sure that the Communist rule didn't do any good for my country - as well as for other countries!
Evidently, memories of invasion will fade with time - I cannot say I hold a grudge against the French for the Norman Conquest, for example. Equally, invasions which have happened within the lifetimes of living people, which have not been the subject of apology, must inevitably affect the people of the invaded country, particularly if atrocities were committed (as happens in most conflicts - atrocity perhaps being a subjective word). So, I do think that Coconutpalm makes a valid point about the Japanese government. The perception, indeed, belief here in Britain is that the Japanese government is behaving insensitively in the extreme about the invasion of China. Almostfreebird, please do not feel personally offended about this. I, for one, would like to hear your opinion very much. Are you saying that anything has been said that is untrue, either in this post or any other in this thread? Please be assured that nobody wants to argue or fight, but to discuss and to understand.
So, your ancestors have survived Vikings/Normans, English, Frenchs (rest of, of course), and Germans.
I wish you understood that the Finns who are against the Russians are in fact against the Soviet Union, not against ordinary Russian people.
I understand that Hakro. Just as I know that people after WW2 came to understand that they had been fighting against the Nazis and not ordinary Germans, many of whom settled in this country, having been prisoners of war. The football matches on Christmas Day during WW1 are one of the most touching examples of the realisation of common humanity during conflict.
The US invasion of Mexico in 1848 has definitely created mistrust between Mexicans and Americans. What is now the US (and belonged to Native Americans) was invaded by settlers from England, France, Spain along with the Dutch and other Western Europeans (if you consider that an "invasion.") Britain attempted to invade the US in the War of 1812 but ultimately were unable to break through American defences.
Yup, I consider that an invasion, considering that it is generally accepted that Native Americans have been on this continent for at least 10,000 years (if not more), as compared to more recent European settlers. Throughout the last couple of centuries, Native American children were forcibly removed from reservations that tribes had been relocated (sometimes forcibly) to different locations under legislation such as the Indian Removal Act of 1830. Found here: http://www.civilrightsteaching.org/Handouts/EachSchoolHadaGraveyard.pdf Since many former students are still alive & were permanently traumatized, it'll definitely take a while to get over what was done to them.
Dear Emma, as you have lived neither the Norman Conquest in England nor the Japanese Occupation in China, where's the difference? Why do you hold a grudge against the Japanese but not against the French? Please explain!
No rudeness at all. You have suggested there is a difference for the lapse of time passed since 1066 and then you say that Chinese government "has a point". As a matter of fact I agree with your point, but Hakro is neither rude nor is reading too much between the lines.
I have made it quite clear that the issue I have with the Japanese government is the lack of an apology,(post 29) let alone reparations. And I consider it up to me whether or not I find another forero rude.
Question: have the governments of Germany and Italy ever issued an official apology for World War II?
Well, I don't think that a grudge against the Japanese was mentioned above. I think the key word here is "apology" in the sense that Japan has never formally apologised for the atrocities committed during it's occupation of China but has, however, apologised for the atrocities committed against the Korean people. Japan will probably never make an apology to China nor will Britain make an apology to Ireland. Besides, I think Emma was just pointing out the general consensus and perception in Britain of the Japanese insensitivity in regard to the issue.
I think yes. I am quite certain for Holocaust. German presidents have, from time time, travel to Israel to visit memorials and have paid reparations (not to the demanded amounts).
I'm not a specialist in history, politics, tactics, economics and all those things are involved in this issue. So if you're interested in hearing from me about that, you can't expect much from me. And you know what you read in newspaper or watch on TV is not always true even in free (democratic) country. All I can say now is: I dislike communism. I dislike nationalism. I dislike militarism. I dislike the liar. I dislike the brainwashing(to a greater or lesser degree)
What about other countries, besides Israel? E.g., did they ever apologize to Spain for Guernica? (A little prior to WWII, I know...)
Just a precision. If you think I'm not correct, feel free to contradict me if you wish. The Normans and the French (at the time of the Norman Conquest) were two different people and two different states. The Normans originally came from Norway and Danemark. That's why they were called the North men (and later Normans). They settled down in Neustria (that later came to be called Normandy, the land of the North men) which was given to them (in fiefdom) by the carolingian king Charles III in order to stop them invading his kingdom. The Normans and the French fought several battles between each other. They were sometimes allies, sometimes ennemies. Finally Normandy was conquered by the French king Philippe Auguste in 1203. In 1066 Britain was conquered by the duke of Normandy William the Conqueror who was in no way a Frenchman. Normandy is now a part of France. But between 911 and 1203 they were two completely different states.
The source is not very sure, but I think yes. I had to ask for it, I did not know. http://www.pbs.org/treasuresoftheworld/guernica/glevel_1/1_bombing.html
Dear Emma, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. I just tried to find a logic in your thinking: "I cannot say I hold a grudge against the French for the Norman Conquest", an a little later "the Japanese government is behaving insensitively in the extreme about the invasion of China". This gave me an impression that you are not against the French but you are against the Japanese. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.
You are more than exact. It only surprised me you said in 5th century your ancestors arrived to Normandy. I only pointed out: - Norman conquest. - English conquest (Henry V) during the Hundred Years war - German conquest (1940). I am unsure about 1870. I think Normandy was not affected. - To a point Normandy invasion 1944 was also an invasion (with French troops, of course). - As you have poointed out the recoveries of Normandy by France (in 1206 and 1453 (?)) was "invasions" since they were two different states (Normandy was united to England). I notice that the 2nd case (HY War) is more a reconquer than an invasion. - i think Normandy was not affected by invasions of France from Belgium by German emperors, Spanish, Austrian and English troops.
Fernando, I would just like to point out that the D-Day invasion on June 6, 1944 on the beaches of Normandy was carried out by American, British, Canadian and Australian troops; not by French troops, the French troops came into action when the Allied troops (American, British, Canadian, Australian) had retaken control of Normandy. Saludos
Hi, Polish history was the one of most complicated political situation existed in our part of Europe for ages. Poland was both aggressor country and an occupied one. Early history from 1386 as Commonwealth of the Polish-Lithuanian Union was one of the largest and most populous states in Europe. In one time the 16th century, Poland was the largest state in Europe after Russia. It covered the territories of Poland and Lithuania, but also the entire territory of Belarus, a large part of Ukraine, and Latvia, and the Western part of today's Russia. Polish language was once a lingua franca in various regions of cenral and Eastern Europe for over two centuries. In 1772, Austria, Russia and Prussia agreed on the First Polish Partition In 1795, the Third Polish Partition wiped Poland off the map. After more than a century of rule by its neighbours Poland regained its independence in 1918 which was broken by II Word War in 1939 -1945 afterward comunism fettering - 1989 - liberation and democracy again. As a result of those facts Polish people have a tremendous national identity, patriotism, sentimentality, attachment for the past history etc. But look, how many enemies we would have. I think Poles are very friendly, delicate people and in everyday life don't remember all national wrongs. But in deep heart our national injury and suffered wouds still exist it couln'd be different and in my opinion it will be taken many time perhaps at least few generations to be forgot all. But on the one condition - politicians from all countries never used them for their private interests
