Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

LV4-26

Senior Member
Fernando said:
You are more than exact. It only surprised me you said in 5th century your ancestors arrived to Normandy.
Slight misunderstanding due to the location mentionned in my profile. As a matter of fact, I only came to live in Normandy in 1987. I'm not from here (father from the North of France and mother from the Bordeaux area). So when I mentionned my ancestors in the 5th century, I was referring to the Francs, who arrived in France then, not the Normans. :)
But, who knows, I may also be a descendant of Gauls or Romans (other invaders).
 
  • LV4-26

    Senior Member
    tonyray said:
    Fernando, I would just like to point out that the D-Day invasion on June 6, 1944 on the beaches of Normandy was carried out by American, British, Canadian and Australian troops;
    And also some Polish and French troops (commandant Kieffer's commando at Ouistreham). Plus an even smaller number of Belgian, Dutch and Norwegian troops. Granted, those didn't "carry out" the invasion, they just participated to it.

    Are you sure about the Australian troops? I've never seen them mentionned.
     

    tonyray

    Senior Member
    English, U.S.A.
    LV4-26 said:
    And also some Polish and French troops (commandant Kieffer's commando at Ouistreham). Plus an even smaller number of Belgian, Dutch and Norwegian troops. Granted, those didn't "carry out" the invasion, they just participated to it.

    Are you sure about the Australian troops? I've never seen them mentionned.
    Hi!

    Yes, about 3,000 Australian troops participated and 14 were killed on June 6, 1944. here's the link:
    http://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/remembering1942/dday/index.asp
     

    diegodbs

    Senior Member
    Spain-Spanish
    I'm not a specialist in history, politics, tactics, economics and all those things are involved in this issue.
    So if you're interested in hearing from me about that, you can't expect much from me.
    And you know what you read in newspaper or watch on TV is not always true even in free (democratic) country.

    All I can say now is:
    I dislike communism.
    I dislike nationalism.
    I dislike militarism.
    I dislike the liar.
    Your points of view about communism, anarchism, lies or truth are important and valuable. Those points of view seem to have nothing to do with the question: Has your country ever invaded other country or been invaded?

    One doesn't need to be a specialist in history, politics, tactics or economics to know whether one's own country has ever invaded another country or has been invaded. It is as simple as "no" or "yes", and if "yes" how many times did it happen, the names of the countries we invaded or the names of the countries that invaded us. The reasons behind those invasions are open to discussion, but not the fact.

    I know nothing about military tactics and I dislike liars as well but I know (mainly by reading History books, since I was not there) that a French army invaded Spain and that Spaniards invaded America or the Philippines.

    Do I agree with those invasions? No.
    Was my country invaded? Yes.
    Did we invade other countries? Yes.

    You are free to answer those questions or not.
     

    almostfreebird

    Senior Member
    Born and raised in Japón, soy japonés
    diegodbs said:
    It is as simple as "no" or "yes",
    I just answered the question by emma42 and I couldn't answer that with only yes and no.
    And my post exist in the whole context(threads).
     

    emma42

    Senior Member
    British English
    Almostfreebird, it is so true that not everything one reads in the media even in a "free democratic country" cannot always be trusted. That is why it is so important to have a Forum like this in which we can ask people we have come to know and trust, to a greater or lesser extent, what they think about issues. Would you let us know what things you think others may have read in newspapers etc are not true and tell us your view on these matters? I only ask, you know you are free to decline. I am just very very interested.
     

    cyanista

    законодательница мод
    NRW
    Belarusian/Russian
    The Japaneze government did issue numerous apologies, as follows from this article. The author expresses his doubts about their sincerity but that's another thing.
     

    tonyray

    Senior Member
    English, U.S.A.
    Does a "free democratic country" REALLY exist or is it just a myth?

    Wow, interesting to note in that article that now after having apologised 18 times, the history books in Japan will be rewritten to put the darkest pages of it in the past.
     

    vince

    Senior Member
    English
    As I said in an earlier post, Japan has only apologized "for any harm that was caused" as though it was just another conflict.

    If you read the article, you will note:

    "In a procession of cases brought by groups including former prisoners of war, "comfort women", orphans and victims of germ warfare, there has been scant acknowledgement of their plight and no offers of compensation."

    Not to mention the regular visits to the shrine where many war criminals are buried.

    Contrast this with Germany, where West German Chancellor Willy Brandt fell prostrate to his knees in front of a Holocaust memorial. Germany recognizes the crimes of its former government, the gas chambers, the medical experiments, the massacres of civilians, etc. The Japanese gov't refuses to acknowledge and apologize for any of these. Germany has also paid billions of dollars in direct compensation to victims, whereas Japan feels it has no obligations to under the San Francisco Treaty.
     

    emma42

    Senior Member
    British English
    Thank you for the link, cyanista. I do not agree that the author expressing "his doubts about their sincerity" is "another thing". It is highly germane. The reported apologies, contemporaneous with the disregard for people's plight and the honouring of the memories of war criminals, make any verbal apology null and void, surely?

    Given the reparations made by, for example, Germany, it would seem that the rest of the world (certainly anywhere I can think of immediately) simply cannot understand the attitude of the Japanese government. The link mentions that a large majority of respondents to a survey in Japan want more dialogue about the matter in apparent contrast to its government. This begs the question of whether the government's reluctance is really a matter of culture, as many think. Does the government adhere to/practise/live in a different culture from its people?
     

    Pivra

    Senior Member
    ...
    How has this coloured their subsequent relations?

    Thailand and Burma, they used to invade us sevaral times although none of their invasions were very successful but later, when the British were finding colonies in Asia, we helped the British to invade Burma. Now they are a very poor country and we despise them and lots of us look down on them. (Basically most of the Burmese people don't know that lots of Thais hate them for no particular reasons.)

    Thailand (Siam, did. Thailand's never invaded anyone. lol) invaded the sultanates in the Malay Peninsula and weaker countries such as Cambodia and Laos like once every 100 years during the 13th until 17th centuries and our claim over Malaysia was finally ended only in 1901.

    I don't think the Malay politicians and their leader like us very much. There are lots of politicians in Malaysia who want us to let Pattani become a Darus Salaam or a Sultanate state. I don't know if this is true, but lots of them support the militant groups in Pattani to liberate the 4 Muslim dominated, Jawi speaking provinces. Narathiwas, Pattani, Yala, and Stul.

    If you go to Cambodia and take a tour in Angkor Wat, they will tell you how we burned the city and looted their wealth. They still hate us.



    Do you think that they have successfully put their history behind them and looked forward?

    Yes, for Burma. No, for Thailand. Lots of us don't forgive them and we try to make the situation of their country worse and worse. (Again, although they don't remember anything anymore but we do.)

    What actions are necessary, on a national and individual basis, for countries to put their past behind them and form a strong bond with each other?

    We must change people's attitude.

    What are examples of countries which have done this successfully?

    America and the UK.

    How many years, or generations, does it take for countries to overcome their history?

    It has been more a few centuries now and we still hate them. It depends on people.

    Do they need outside assistance to achieve this? What sort of assistance?

    No. If only 2 countries or 3 can't deal with their own problems, how could others achieve it?

    To which point can this country be considered having "overcome this history", as an invador or an invadee?

    People don't talk their previous wars and don't hate each others without reasons.




    Do I agree with those invasions?
    Our invasion of Burma during the late 1800s.... yes, it was for our own benefit and independency, if we did not, we would've not been the only uncolonized country in South and Southeast Asia.
    Our invasion of the sultanates from the 1300s to 1600s,...yes, we just saw the fall of India, which is not so far across the Andaman Sea and felt threatened by Islam. The rise of Islam in among the Jawi and Malay speaking states was not what we want to see.
    Our invasion of the Khmer Empire..... yes, it was because of the wealth we took when we destroyed Angkor Wat that we used to build our cities. If we didn't, someone else will anyway.



    I admit we did, and I feel no regrets that my ancestors'd invaded other countries. It was all for those who will live after their death. How could I feel bad and unthanksful to what they sacrificed they lives for us?
     

    emma42

    Senior Member
    British English
    Pivra, thank you for that interesting post. But why do you think that outside assistance could not help these "2 or 3 countries" to start to resolve their differences. Mediators and impartial outsiders have done this sort of thing for centuries, from countries to individuals. Often with success.
     

    Tensai

    Member
    Chinese Cantonese, Hong Kong
    vince said:
    That is what is happening in East Asia. Japan only admits that there was a war, and apologizes 'if they caused any harm', but they fail to recognize the
    atrocities they committed on civilians and POWs. And high-ranking government officials continue to visit graves where WWII soldiers are buried.
    in fact, most Japanese history textbooks in schools only talk about the war for just 1,2 pages. some textbooks don't even mention, and some glorifies the invasion.
     

    Pivra

    Senior Member
    ...
    emma42 said:
    Pivra, thank you for that interesting post. But why do you think that outside assistance could not help these "2 or 3 countries" to start to resolve their differences. Mediators and impartial outsiders have done this sort of thing for centuries, from countries to individuals. Often with success.
    I don't know much about the history of mediation, but when the US became a country, who else were there to write the Declaration? Now, there is no political conflicts between the 2 countries because both the UK and the US solved thier own problems. France wasn't even invited when the Declaration was written. Everything was done between the two countries.
     

    coconutpalm

    Senior Member
    Chinese,China
    If any of you has ever had a look at my other posts in other threads, you can see clearly that I am not anti-Japanese, I'm anti-Japanese government.
    Two or three days ago, I watched a moving movie for a second time. It was set in China, several days before August 15, 1945, the unconditional surrender of Japan. Interestingly enough, the leading parts are of three nationalities: a rescued Chinese POW previously in Japanese camp, whose mother was killed in his face by a Japanese soldier, a Russian soldier, and a Japanese girl whose boyfriend was forced into the army by the end of the war.
    What the movie mainly tells us is that the people from the invaded country are definitely victims, and at the same time, the people from the invading country can be victims, but the wrongdoings can never be denied!

    Today's Japanese government stresses only on Hiroshima, but tries to forget the Nanjing massacre (300,000 deaths in 6 weeks) and many of its people, including those politicians pick up the idea that Japan was actually saving Chinese people. Hahaha! What a ridiculous joke!

    Am I being emotional again? Yes, I think so. I am trying to answer my own questions in the opening post:
    China invaded many other countries. Etcetera should remember the YUan dynasty.
    China was invaded by many other countries from 1840 to 1949.
    Without a sincere apology, I don't think Chinese people can ever forget the bitter history and can forgive.
    More and more sensible people in China are appealing both peoples to discuss the historical events in a sensible, sincere and understanding way, but they are not saying that "Hey, you can just forget it! it's the easiest way." I am for these people. When I post in the local forums, I always try my best to analyze, to be sensible, to tell my fellow people not to be over-emotional but practical.

    Almostfreebird, I am not an agitator or a propagandist. Nor was I brainwashed. I am not a communist but I definitely love my country. I am just stating the truth. I am 19 years old, I am trying to be sensible, can you cool down, and stop thinking that I am attacking you and your fellow citizens?
     

    emma42

    Senior Member
    British English
    Very well said, coconutpalm. You have clearly expressed your views and have not been offensive, in my view. You most certainly do not appear as an agitator or propagandist, but simply as someone who genuinely wants to put the past behind her, but needs the cooperation of the other party in order to do so. I am pleased to hear about both the people in China who want to discuss the matter, and the people in Japan who took part in the survey in the link so kindly provided for us.
     

    Tensai

    Member
    Chinese Cantonese, Hong Kong
    emma42 said:
    I have made it quite clear that the issue I have with the Japanese government is the lack of an apology,(post 29) let alone reparations.
    i don't care about whether give China reparations or not, all i want is a sincere formal apology from the Japanese government, and state the truth of history (as close as possible) in their history textbooks

    when we were kids, if we did something bad, we would get spanked by our mothers, so that we remember not to do something like that again. however, Japan does not seem to remember, or want to remember their faults, it is very dangerous for Japan if they continue to hold this attitude, a person who does not remember the lessons he got, is likely to make the same mistakes again.
     

    coconutpalm

    Senior Member
    Chinese,China
    Yes, panjabigator. We generally consider Britain the first invadors. But why don't we hate Britain, America, Germany,Russia,France,etc., but we do hate Japan? Isn't it intersting? All the countries above except Japan truly admit their mistakes in the past.
    As tensai pointed out, what we want is just a sincere apology. If a country doesn't learn something from its past wrongdoings, it's dangerous both for others and itself.
     

    danielfranco

    Senior Member
    Ah, Mexico... It stands as a solitary figure in the sense that it has never carried out a successful invasion
    (as far as I know, but how far is that, really? No one knows...)
    The one country I am sure that Mexico did try to invade was the erstwhile Republic of Texas. Then, enter Sam Huston. Remember the Alamo, and all that jazz...
    Back in its pre-Colombus history, the nations within what is now known as central Mexico would invade each other every other Tuesday, it seems, never holding the territories for long... Until the Aztecs (Mexicas) arrived in the scene and "smooshed" everyone else and imposed their order, there was no Mexico. The Aztecs invented Mexico. And then the Spanish came and "smooshed" them into oblivion....
    I think that, even now, the defeatist and despondent attitude prevalent in many areas of the Mexican culture (mainly the State) might be traced back to the very definite Spanish conquest and almost obliteration of the Mexicans over five hundred years ago.
     

    cuchuflete

    Senior Member
    EEUU-inglés
    As I read the sincere statements in this thread, questions occur to me, and I don't have good or comfortable answers:

    1- If politicians are insincere, as most seem to be, can they give sincere apologies?
    2- Does it matter if a politician feels genuine remorse for the actions of those who lived, and often died, before his or her birth?
    3- Can one apologize sincerely and usefully for the actions of other people?
    4- If young people today feel aggrieved by the actions of others, two or three or more generations ago, should they look for apologies from those who caused the offense, or from the children and grandchildren and great grandchildren of the wrongdoers?
    5-Should citizens of an invaded country look to the descendents of the invaders for honest apologies, when that same invaded country has invaded, and continues to occupy other nations? Is there a need for equal sincerity by all?
    6- Why does a government deny history? Why does it allow children to be taught things that are not true?

    Obviously some of these questions might be applied to China and Japan, but they could also be applied to my own country.
    I am not interested in fomenting a polemic in favor of any government here. I mistrust most politicians.

    There may be deep cultural differences in perception of the importance of these questions. Some of my ancestors were murdered by a government in another country. I would take no satisfaction if the current government of that country were to apologise. That wouldn't reverse the murders. It wouldn't speak to the feelings or the indifference of current inhabitants of that country. It would, for me, provide no justice and no
    recompense. The only thing I would wish for is education of the current generation, in order that such horrors not be repeated.

    Some many years ago, the government of my own country was fully responsible for the murder of some of my children's ancestors. A later government apologised. That did nothing to undo the past. It may have helped change the way history is taught here. That I applaud.
     

    emma42

    Senior Member
    British English
    I think the point is, in relation to Japan, that the government is not simply ignoring the past, but is actively compounding the offence by teaching untruths and part-truths, denying any wrongdoing and paying homage to the memories of war criminals.
     

    coconutpalm

    Senior Member
    Chinese,China
    I don't think the still living and suffering "comfort women" can ever forgive those that raped them, but a sincere apology from their offsprings do matter and help.
    Does it matter if a politician feels genuine remorse for the actions of those who lived, and often died, before his or her birth?
    Yes, it matters. Whenever I read the report about the Germany prime minister that got down to his knees to apologize, I am deeply moved and loathe even more the current Prime minister of Japan.

    Can one apologize sincerely and usefully for the actions of other people?
    Yes, I think so. A Japanese monk travelled alone for two years to sites where Japan had done the most cruel things to Chinese, knelt down, and prayed. Great man!

    If young people today feel aggrieved by the actions of others, two or three or more generations ago, should they look for apologies from those who caused the offense, or from the children and grandchildren and great grandchildren of the wrongdoers?
    Traditionally, we think so. We even seeked revenge. Today most of us think it silly things, but what we want is just an "apology"!

    Why does a government deny history? Why does it allow children to be taught things that are not true?
    I don't know. Ask Koitsumi.
     

    emma42

    Senior Member
    British English
    I fear I am stepping into dangerous territory here and I have very little knowledge about these things, but I would like to ask, with the greatest of respect, whether the reluctance of the Japanese government to apologise sincerely is due to a sense of what some might call "honour" or the cultural imperative to never admit wrong?

    This is a sincere question and not an accusation.
     

    coconutpalm

    Senior Member
    Chinese,China
    Yes, it's a dangerous question:D
    Actually, I believe the Orient people are all less inclined to admit wrong, at least in public. Although traditionally, we are taught not to tell lies and apologize whenever you FEEL you have hurt/offend others, we are also deeply influenced by the "save face" norm.
    As for Japan, I think it's more complicated. They have their Bushi tradition, they were defeated in the World War, they think they were invaded by America after the War, many of them were/are taught that the old Japan was saving Chinese and Koreans, they have a really amazing recovery and Japan is one of the richest and strongest countries in the world...
    Again, I am not a Japanese. I can't speak for them.

    As I said before, China invaded many countries in the past, too. However, when I refer to materials, I find that we willingly admit it rather than deny it.
    Then again, in those materials, I sense a "dismissive" air. NOt that we are not aware of the sufferings of the invaded countries, just that ... hard to say. I will try to state my ideas as clearly as possible:
    The invador tend to forget the history more easily than the invaded. However, if the invador are defeated, it's most likely that both parties keep remembering the bitter past and hating each other.
    Deadlock.
    Deadlock?
    Deadlock!
     

    almostfreebird

    Senior Member
    Born and raised in Japón, soy japonés
    emma42 said:
    I fear I am stepping into dangerous territory here and I have very little knowledge about these things, but I would like to ask, with the greatest of respect, whether the reluctance of the Japanese government to apologise sincerely is due to a sense of what some might call "honour" or the cultural imperative to never admit wrong?

    This is a sincere question and not an accusation.
    I don't have much knowledge either and I don't want to talk like a glib, so I put some useful link.
    How about "A New definition of hypocricy"?
    http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/china.html
     

    MarcB

    Senior Member
    US English
    I admit before hand that I am trying to compress many thoughts into as brief a form as possible so I hope any lack of continuity does not trouble anyone nor do I wish to offend anyone by my post.
    So many countries have invaded and been invaded. It is only a recent phenomenon for countries to apologize for past atrocities. It is not uncommon for countries to”bury the hatchet” even without an apology. The many conflicts Western Europe’s conquest of various parts of the Americas, Africa and Asia seem long ago but the legacy remains. “To the victor goes the spoils” and also the victor writes the history. Has Turkey apologized to the Armenians? To some Turkish eyes the Armenians in Turkey helped the enemy Russia in that conflict.
    Has China apologized to the Uyghur (Eastern Turkistan), The Tibetans, etc.? Korea and Japan still dispute some unpopulated islands as their territory for fishing rights. Russia and Japan dispute other islands. The communist rule throughout Eastern Europe and Asia and their successors have not apologized. The WWII conflict not only has people in Slavic countries who still hold a grudge talk to people who were alive at that time in the west, there are still people who hold a grudge. Okinawa which was invaded and occupied by Japan as a result of a request by the Okinawans to stop a Chinese invasion was then held by the US from the end of WWII until the 1970s, with much ado Jimmy Carter “returned Okinawa to Japan” In the US the native population was decimated and the promises to them were always broken, Africans were enslaved, many Europeans were indentured servants and later discriminated against not only people of other colors. The Japanese Americans were put in internment camps, There was discrimination against the Jews and Irish. Fortunately much if not most of these injustices have been corrected, unfortunately some of this legacy remains although it is no longer sanctioned by the government and it is in the process of constant improvement. As for the Japan-China-Korea issue. One needs to take into account, although as we all know atrocities were committed, what the average Japanese person believes about this dark history and the general attitude of the people at that time. The Meiji dynasty (1868-1912) was the main unification of modern Japan it was at this point that Japan ended its isolation from the rest of the world. The Japanese began to immigrate to Brazil, the US, Peru among other places. The Emperor took on a godlike importance and people felt an almost religious fervor of patriotism.
    European colonization was still in full force at the time of WWII. The leaders of Japan lead the people to believe that they were liberating Asia from the “evils” of European control. Of course the Philippines, China, Korea and the Solomon Islands among others may not share this point of view. Also the 武士道 Bushido code which among other things calls for suicide before dishonor is a factor for a country that, was defeated (unconditional surrender) given a constitution written by the Americans and the prohibition against forming a viable army ( as I look at my souvenir ashtray labeled made in occupied Japan). Some Americans still remember the 25 mile death march to Bataan yet Japan is the US’ closest ally in Asia. Just a note the 武士道 Bushido code started after Japan’s unsuccessful war with Tang Dynasty China and Silla (part of current Korea).I think and hope that we can all bury the hatchet with or without an apology. In War and invasions all parties are victims.
     

    coconutpalm

    Senior Member
    Chinese,China
    I think and hope that we can all bury the hatchet with or without an apology. In War and invasions all parties are victims.
    Totally agree. And I have said such things in my previous posts.
    However, if you don't cure the old trauma, can you really start a new life? I really doubt it, let alone that we are not just talking about two countries. We are talking about people Those living "Comfort women" and pre-POWs in the World War II are too old and weak to start a new life. Their last desire is a simple but sincere apology.
    The apology thing emerges only recently and there are many many political and economical factors working. True. But things that are not traditional are not necessarily bad.

    BTW, I will not comment on the link provided by Almostfreebird because it's off-topic, but I reserve my right to depise such a politically-biased website.

    Edit: not to have you misunderstand me.
     

    Pivra

    Senior Member
    ...
    I actually don't want to join this WWII miniature, but , Japan had no intentions to LIBERATE nobody from European colonization. Why did Japan INVADE THAILAND???????? Why? We aren't anyone's colony. Why?


    ps. This is just to some people who don't accept the fact that Japan didnt try to help anyone during WWII not all Japanese tho.
     

    CrazyIvan

    Senior Member
    Taiwan-Taiwanese
    What a long thread, I read it through and decided to reply from all the begining, since I happened to have a little of knowledge about all these things.

    coconutpalm said:
    Nowadays, the political relationship between China and Japan is extremely bad. What is worse, the peoples in both countries HATE each other, or at least, loathe each other.
    I would like to remind you that there are some very dangerous perception you had in these sentences, which actually frightened me while I read this.

    The government relationship between China and Japan is extremly bad?
    you may say that the relationship between N. Korea and Japan is extremely bad. Or the relationship between Iran and America is extremely bad,or another example, Isareal and Palestanian. But China and Japan has some more delicated relationship.

    Aside from this issue, Japanese business and government aid has been contribute their efforts in China, though they consider to suspend or decrease the amout. Two government with bad relationship cannot negotiate with some deals like that.( I mean, aides.)

    I will assume, you government is trying hard to make people believe that you two have bad relationship, however, they are hiddenly the truth the Japan actually has benefited China at the same time.

    The people in both country hate each other?

    You can always find some exceptions in the public. My observation is that Chinese people have a lot to talk about this "hate" feelings but the Japanese do not talk little about it, or, they do not really have any particular And hate is such a strong word I would avoid. Also, you should consider what the cause of this "dislike" feeling is. I would do my brief summary and please correct me if you find the opposite.

    Chinese, have disliked Japanese due to the history.
    I am happy to read from the following article that you limited your resentment feeling to Japanese Government, but not general Japanese people.
    But Japanese, the general "dislike" feeling to Chinese is against toward the Chinese immigrants(partially illegal) in Japan cities. They cause troubles that Japanese government can barely handled.

    Did you see the difference?
     

    daoxunchang

    Senior Member
    Chinese China
    Another reason given by some people to explain we Chinese's persistent request for a sincere apology is that we have "a persecution complex". This is just an outrageous accusation. Can the referring to what has "really" happened be fitted into this phrase "persecution complex", which according to dictionary.reference.com means "the feeling of being persecuted especially without basis in reality"?
    I believe most of you know about the phrase "Yellow Peril". We were dubbed this just because we have a really large population. How should we call this? I say I would not call this a persecution complex because it is understandable. But what's behind this and what this would lead to is most worrisome.
     

    coconutpalm

    Senior Member
    Chinese,China
    Thanks for your post, Ivan.
    I think I have made some of my points not as clear as intended. I apologize for that.
    Surely China and Japan are closely related, but that doesn't mean that the relationship between them are good, or near good, but I'm ready to admit that maybe "extremly" is a "extremly" strong word that I shouldn't have used it. ON the other hand, it's subjective to decide to which extent is the extreme end, isn't it. I will adopt your suggestion and change it to "very" later, though. Thank you.

    The people in both country hate each other?
    My fault, I should have said" the people in both country loathe the other country, not necessarily the people."

    I will assume, you government is trying hard to make people believe that you two have bad relationship, however, they are hiddenly the truth the Japan actually has benefited China at the same time.
    Not true. Many many people in the world know that the two countries have a bad relationship.
    And as I noted before, many of us are trying to be sensible, and natuarlly we know the fact that Japanese businesses contribute their effort to China's development, as other businesses from many other coutries. We thank them for that, but should we be grateful? Why don't they compensate the "comfort women" and previous POWs?

    I am happy to read from the following article that you limited your resent feeling to Japanese Government, but not general Japanese people.
    I didn't "limit" my feeling. I have been having no personal dislike towards Japanese people, as you can see from my posts in this thread and many other threads as well.

    And you didn't answer my questions. Taiwan was invaded by Japan, and I know many Taiwaness feel close to it, including Chen Shuibian. Seemingly you overcome that history easily, so could you please tell me how and why? Thank you.


    BTW, we generall think Taiwan is a province, not a country, but that's completely another issue.
     

    CrazyIvan

    Senior Member
    Taiwan-Taiwanese
    Since you asked the following questions, I would like to answer briefly.

    Yes, if you consider Taiwan as a entity, we have been invaded several times(Kidding:So good/bad that we never had a chance to invade someone:p )

    Since the 16th century the Portugese discovered this island, we have constantly occupied by different western countries. Northern part belonged to Spanish and Southern part belong to Dutch. However, a Chinese general drove Dutch away and re-established a base (to against Ching Dynasty.)

    Ching Empire invade to destroy this small government again, and ruled it until the day they ceded Taiwan to Japan in 1895.

    We Taiwanese held a series of uprising right after Japanese army landed on our island. In my county, we were pround of a hard fight cause the death of a Japanese royal member.

    Of course, all these events had be quelled and the Japan started their occupation in Taiwan.

    We have tried various way to against Japanese Occupation, especially the unreasonalbe laws and regualtion. The most success uprising is not through physical confrontation, but through the protest, demostration, and petition to the parlimant in Tokyo.( at that moment.)

    I would like to set this as an example since Japan is the last invasion.( well, if KMT is another ivasion or not is highly debated, so, I would just finished here and start to answer your questions.)

    How has this coloured their subsequent relations?
    The subsequent relations after Japanese leave this island have various changes.

    Do you think that they have successfully put their history behind them and looked forward?
    Yes, I do believe so.

    What actions are necessary, on a national and individual basis, for countries to put their past behind them and form a strong bond with each other?
    I cannot say from national basis since I am neither political figures nor active in politic events. Yet, Taiwan, as a coutry or not, is still debatable, so, "national" since a far-fetched word for me.:p

    However, from individual basis, I know a bit. At least, a frequent contact with your target nation is necessary. I used to dislike Japanese too, for those they have done to Taiwan. however, the more I learn about their history and culture, the more I can talk with Japanese people. The more I can talk to them, the more I think I can understand the way they act.

    (For example, do you know that, in Japan, right before the war, there is a huge debate about, Should they start the war? The prime minister of that time is constantly changed and even some of them are assissinated by Japanese Army, who really wanted this war.)

    This is an accumulated process, and it takes time. But if you hold the attitude that "I hate Japanese and I never would like to get contact with them." Then this efforts will never succeed.

    What are examples of countries which have done this successfully?
    How many years, or generations, does it take for countries to overcome their history?


    I think most Taiwanese do not dislike Japanese anymore. That is three generation. From my grandpa to me.

    Do they need outside assistance to achieve this? What sort of assistance?
    I have to say, Taiwanese people are born to be flexible and pragmatic, and this mentality truly help.

    No matters how great hatred we had in betwen Japan and Taiwan, we have put it aside and create economic development together. We therefore foster closer relationship in between. Plus, we both have American Army base on our territory during Korea and Vietnam war, which allow us to share a lot in common for the following generation.

     

    coconutpalm

    Senior Member
    Chinese,China
    Ivan, you really hit the nail on the head: Contact each other!
    It was unimaginable that we can peacefully discuss this issue in the past. However, now we want to settle the problem rather than continue living in hatred/dislike for each other. I think it should attribute to the more frequent contacts with each other.

    But I have to differ with you somewhere:The more I can talk to them, the more I think I can understand the way they act.
    True, but I can never understand the way they acted.

    Thank you very much, Ivan. the posts seemed to getting off-topic because we are shifting our attention to Sino-Japan relationship, quite on the contrary to what I intended. I was considering to ask a Mod for help because my several attempts to reverse it didn't work.
    Now I think we can continue this thread, peacefully.
     

    CrazyIvan

    Senior Member
    Taiwan-Taiwanese
    I would like to further develop the topic into the recent turbulance in between KMT and DPP, the two major political parties in Taiwan. And cause of this is actually related to this topic.

    While KMT army boarded on this island in 1945, people were happy that the Japanese had gone, however, due to the incompetence of the KMT governor, it happened an uprising called 228 incident in 1947. This conflicts tore up the relationshp in between local Taiwanese and newly-immigrant Chinese population and the effects remain to nowadays.

    There have been three generations. We do not have direct victim of that incident in my family. However, I hear a lot of stories. I have to say, yes,from those stories, I can feel that people can hardly forget this kind of tragedy happening to their families, and can hardly forgive the "invader."

    But, please be noticed, KMT has public apologized for thier wrong-doing. However, this sentiment is still linger over the island.

    Why?

    ok, in my generation, in my daily life, I do not care about where my friends' family came from. And, actually, my parents would not care where their colleague come from as well. Our political identity would only be show on the ballots in each election.

    However, parties do believe that manipulation in this sentiment is beneficial, or say, necessary to polls. They tried all the best to heat up this topic, which remind people again and again and some of them just cannot walk out of that agony.

    So, that is what I would like to point out. Be cautious about the news what the political parties/govenment/government-sponsored media trying to feed you. That is dangerous.
     

    dahut

    Senior Member
    Europe - Spanish
    danielfranco said:
    Ah, Mexico... It stands as a solitary figure in the sense that it has never carried out a successful invasion
    (as far as I know, but how far is that, really? No one knows...)
    The one country I am sure that Mexico did try to invade was the erstwhile Republic of Texas. Then, enter Sam Huston. Remember the Alamo, and all that jazz...
    Back in its pre-Colombus history, the nations within what is now known as central Mexico would invade each other every other Tuesday, it seems, never holding the territories for long... Until the Aztecs (Mexicas) arrived in the scene and "smooshed" everyone else and imposed their order, there was no Mexico. The Aztecs invented Mexico. And then the Spanish came and "smooshed" them into oblivion....
    I think that, even now, the defeatist and despondent attitude prevalent in many areas of the Mexican culture (mainly the State) might be traced back to the very definite Spanish conquest and almost obliteration of the Mexicans over five hundred years ago.
    Do you think that if the descendants of Aztecs would come back to light (metaphoric) from that so-called oblivion, they would apologize to the other pre-Colombus tribes descendants that they "smooshed"?

    I don't think any country, state, nation, people can apologize non-stop for 100, 300 or 500 years. Said it once, take it and move on.
    I don't think any Spaniard would go to France and expect them to apologize for the Napoleonic Wars.
    If people are always attached to their past invasions (done or suffered)... There is no lesson learned. Just self-pity.
     

    Foxynet

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Hi !
    here are just a few remarks.
    To be totally honest, I never really learn about Napoleonic invasions (we talk about "Napoleonic wars"). I "only" learned about what was happening inside France at that time (such a mess ! no more time at school to learn about what was happening outside!). And so I recently realised, traveling through Europe, that Napoleon is seen like an invader, an oppressor. In France, he's the one that brought "progress" (ie Republic, stable institutions, laws,...). So it can be hard for (some) French to "apologize" for napoleon's expansion policy.
    And to talk about the consequence of invasion on current relation/situation : a French region, the Alsace-Lorraine, was French before the WW1, german between the two WW, and French again since WW2. The result is that it has a specific legal status, with adaptated laws, to take into account the german heritage. Though, I'm not from that region, so I don't know how the inhabitants feel toward Germany.
     

    emma42

    Senior Member
    British English
    I was about to type that I feel no guilt about the British Empire, just disgust. But the fact is, my life is comfortable and materially rich, despite living on a low income, due to the fact that my ancestors (or, more likely, their bosses) stole the countries and bodies of others. I don't feel guilt exactly, but I cannot deny that I feel something approaching embarrassment.
     

    Neever

    Senior Member
    Ireland
    Fernando said:
    Spain has been invaded by:

    All W Europe
    All Maghreb + Arabs
    All of Western Europe? I beg to differ, we haven't invaded anyone! :) At least not in modern history - "Spain" has not been invaded by "Ireland".
     

    Tatzingo

    Senior Member
    English, UK
    emma42 said:
    I understand what you are saying, almostfreebird, and thank you for the links. I am just learning about these matters.
    Emma42,

    RE: http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/china.html

    I'm no expert on these matters either but if i were you, I'd be very careful before taking this link's author's one sided opinion as fact. An excerpt:

    http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/china.html#chin0704

    There is a claim that China annexed Hong Kong in 1997 and is seeking the same result with regards Taiwan.... (see edit)

    If I remember my history, Hong Kong was Chinese territory annexed to the British at the end of the Opium wars, for a period close to 100 years. China didn't annex Hong Kong at all, rather, territory ceded/capitulated by them was restored to their government in 1997.

    I don't want to launch accusations but this one article sounds more like propanganda to me....

    Tatz.

    Edit. I had to delete the quotation as i have since found a copyright on the site concerned, so i have had to paraphrase it.
     

    Fernando

    Senior Member
    Spain, Spanish
    Neever said:
    All of Western Europe? I beg to differ, we haven't invaded anyone! :) At least not in modern history - "Spain" has not been invaded by "Ireland".
    Partially agreed. You were a part of British state most of time. As a sad way to save my pathetic and sweeping comment (well, Switzerland, Andorra and Austria has neither invaded Spain) I would say there is a legend about Celtics from Ireland migrating to Asturias and Galicia (NW Spain).
     

    Tatzingo

    Senior Member
    English, UK
    Fernando said:
    Partially agreed. You were a part of British state most of time. As a sad way to save my pathetic and sweeping comment (well, Switzerland, Andorra and Austria has neither invaded Spain) I would say there is a legend about Celtics from Ireland migrating to Asturias and Galicia (NW Spain).
    But it was a peaceful migration, not an invasion? And it is only legend, right?

    Tatz.
     

    Sallyb36

    Senior Member
    British UK
    emma42 said:
    I was about to type that I feel no guilt about the British Empire, just disgust. But the fact is, my life is comfortable and materially rich, despite living on a low income, due to the fact that my ancestors (or, more likely, their bosses) stole the countries and bodies of others. I don't feel guilt exactly, but I cannot deny that I feel something approaching embarrassment.
    I feel ashamed that we were such a nasty nation. Yet somehow proud that although we are such a small country we managed to do what we did, but ashamed as well. Definitely conflicting emotions!!
     

    Neever

    Senior Member
    Ireland
    Fernando said:
    Partially agreed. You were a part of British state most of time. As a sad way to save my pathetic and sweeping comment (well, Switzerland, Andorra and Austria has neither invaded Spain) I would say there is a legend about Celtics from Ireland migrating to Asturias and Galicia (NW Spain).
    Ok, I'll agree with the ancient history part - that might be true, but when we were part of the British state it was because we had been invaded ourselves! I get very het up when I talk about that though, so I'm leaving my contribution there! :)
     
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