Help Request about a Medieval Greek Sentence

greeksources

Member
Turkish
Hello everyone,

I am having difficulty understanding a sentence from the 17th century. The sentence is below. I appreciate your help in advance!

"Τούτου χάριν τό νεάζον της γυναικός ιδόντες και την άπορίαν αύτης καί ένδειαν καί προνοησάμενοι της ψυχικής αύτης σωτηρίας όπως μή παρεμπέση είς όλισθον."

Apologies about the accents. I understand the first part as "Therefore, seeing that the woman is young and seeing her poverty..." But I have no idea about the last part...
 
  • ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Hi,
    I understand the first part as "Therefore, seeing that the woman is young and seeing her poverty..." But I have no idea about the last part...
    The sentence you are quoting is lacking a verb, so as to form a full main clause, παρεμπέση being the verb of the subordinate clause of purpose “όπως μή παρεμπέση είς όλισθον.” Anyway, the following might be a possible rendition.

    Therefore, having seen the youth of the woman and her poverty and destitution and having provided for the salvation of her soul in order that she doesn't fall into a moral lapse…(a verb is needed here, e.g. we did this or that).
     

    greeksources

    Member
    Turkish
    Hi,

    The sentence you are quoting is lacking a verb, so as to form a full main clause, παρεμπέση being the verb of the subordinate clause of purpose “όπως μή παρεμπέση είς όλισθον.” Anyway, the following might be a possible rendition.

    Therefore, having seen the youth of the woman and her poverty and destitution and having provided for the salvation of her soul in order that she doesn't fall into a moral lapse…(a verb is needed here, e.g. we did this or that).
    Thank you very much!! It was greatly helpful. Your translation showed me I was misinterpreting the word "ψυχικóς." May I ask how you interpret this word in another sentence: "Ταύτου χάριν έκεινον μέν άφορισμώ καθυπολάλλομεν ώς παράνομον, ταύτην δέ τήν Σουλτάναν διεχωρίσαμε έκεινου έκκλησιαστικώς, επί τώ συζευχθήναι ετέρω άνδρί, χρήζουσαν τών προς ζωάρκειαν άναγκαίων όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς." Again, apologies about the accents. And thank you very much for your time and help! I was misinterpreting the last part as "not to be in danger mentally" but I think I am wrong?
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I was misinterpreting the last part as "not to be in danger mentally" but I think I am wrong?
    Given that when we are talking about "ψυχική υγεία / soular health" in most cases we mean "διανοητική υγεία / mental health" [see e.g. psychiatry=the branch of medicine concerned with the study, diagnosis, and treatment of mental illness], your translation of the phrase "όπως μή κινδυνεύση ψυχικώς." as "so as not to be in danger mentally" is good. Of course, you know that "ψυχικής" in the first phrase above is an adjective, whereas "ψυχικώς" in your last phrase is an adverb.
     

    greeksources

    Member
    Turkish
    Given that when we are talking about "ψυχική υγεία / soular health" in most cases we mean "διανοητική υγεία / mental health" [see e.g. psychiatry=the branch of medicine concerned with the study, diagnosis, and treatment of mental illness], your translation of the phrase "όπως μή κινδυνεύση ψυχικώς." as "so as not to be in danger mentally" is good. Of course, you know that "ψυχικής" in the first phrase above is an adjective, whereas "ψυχικώς" in your last phrase is an adverb.
    I see. I was not sure about my translation but you cleared up my mind. Thank you very much for your help!
     

    sotos

    Senior Member
    Greek
    όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς." ... I was misinterpreting the last part as "not to be in danger mentally" but I think I am wrong?
    Not "mentally" in the modern sense, but "spiritually", in the religious sense. They were probably afraid that the woman could change religion.
     

    greeksources

    Member
    Turkish
    Not "mentally" in the modern sense, but "spiritually", in the religious sense. They were probably afraid that the woman could change religion.
    Hello, thank you very much for your comment! I was confused about its meaning since the text is from the 17th century I had a hard time making sense of the word ψυχικως. In that regard, what you say might fit better into the context. Still, it is not very clear to me what it might entail being "spiritually in danger." Any thoughts? Thank you so much!
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Given that when we are talking about "ψυχική υγεία / soular health" in most cases we mean "διανοητική υγεία / mental health" [see e.g. psychiatry=the branch of medicine concerned with the study, diagnosis, and treatment of mental illness], your translation of the phrase "όπως μή κινδυνεύση ψυχικώς." as "so as not to be in danger mentally" is good. Of course, you know that "ψυχικής" in the first phrase above is an adjective, whereas "ψυχικώς" in your last phrase is an adverb.
    I don't agree. Ψυχική υγεία definitely means 'mental health' in modern Greek, but in your sentence I am sure that means 'that her soul may not be endangered'. A young and indigent woman abandoned by her husband might well slide into prostitution for lack of means if she were prevented from remarrying.
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    It's certain that she wouldn’t be prevented from remarrying, given that they granted her the divorce, so as she would be free to remarry (επί τώ συζευχθήναι ετέρω άνδρί) and make her life again.

    όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς
    Given that very often translation is one thing and meaning is another, in the second excerpt, I considered Greeksources's translation good (as it really was), the meaning being either (more probably) the one suggested by Aggelos (a repetition of the translation/meaning proposed in # 2 above, if we are absolutely sure that the same case is described in both excerpts) or (less probably, but possibly) "so as not to be mentally endangered", in the sense that they (the "religious/communal council of the time which examined her case") judged there was a fear/danger for her to be mentally disturbed after all she had been through (e.g. her husband’s infidelities) and as she was in urgent need of means for living.
     
    Last edited:

    greeksources

    Member
    Turkish
    It's certain that she wouldn’t be prevented from remarrying, given that they granted her the divorce, so as she would be free to remarry (επί τώ συζευχθήναι ετέρω άνδρί) and make her life again.


    Given that very often translation is one thing and meaning is another, in the second excerpt, I considered Greeksources's translation good (as it really was), the meaning being either (more probably) the one suggested by Aggelos (a repetition of the translation/meaning proposed in # 2 above, if we are absolutely sure that the same case is described in both excerpts) or (less probably, but possibly) "so as not to be mentally endangered", in the sense that they (the "religious/communal council of the time which examined her case") judged there was a fear/danger for her to be mentally disturbed after all she had been through (e.g. her husband’s infidelities) and as she was in urgent need of means for living.
    Thank you Aggelos and Ioanell. I am again quite confused because even though it seems that there is a slight difference between the two translations (mentally vs. religiously/her soul being in danger/spiritually), within the context it makes a huge difference for me. On the one hand, the court synod was worried about the mental health of the woman (because she was alone, left by her husband, deprived of her basic needs), on the other hand, the synod was worried that her religious character/piousness was in danger since it was quite possible that she could have an extramarital affair unless they officially divorce her or, as Satos said, convert to Islam. I don't know if it is possible to make sure what actually was implied...
     

    greeksources

    Member
    Turkish
    It's certain that she wouldn’t be prevented from remarrying, given that they granted her the divorce, so as she would be free to remarry (επί τώ συζευχθήναι ετέρω άνδρί) and make her life again.


    Given that very often translation is one thing and meaning is another, in the second excerpt, I considered Greeksources's translation good (as it really was), the meaning being either (more probably) the one suggested by Aggelos (a repetition of the translation/meaning proposed in # 2 above, if we are absolutely sure that the same case is described in both excerpts) or (less probably, but possibly) "so as not to be mentally endangered", in the sense that they (the "religious/communal council of the time which examined her case") judged there was a fear/danger for her to be mentally disturbed after all she had been through (e.g. her husband’s infidelities) and as she was in urgent need of means for living.
    Thank you Aggelos and Ioanell. I am again quite confused because even though it seems that there is a slight difference between the two translations (mentally vs. religiously/her soul being in danger/spiritually), within the context it makes a huge difference for me. On the one hand, the court synod was worried about the mental health of the woman (because she was alone, left by her husband, deprived of her basic needs), on the other hand, the synod was worried that her religious character/piousness was in danger since it was quite possible that she could have an extramarital affair unless they officially divorce her or, as Satos said, convert to Islam. I don't know if it is possible to make sure what actually was implied...
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I don't know if it is possible to make sure what actually was implied...
    I am not absolutely sure that the two excerpts you quoted refer to same case -and you haven’t said that. In case they do, the link between the two, which could offer a help, is missing. Anyway, the first excerpt has already been translated with much fidelity, in my opinion. As for the second excerpt, one can read:

    (Ταύτου χάριν έκεινον μέν άφορισμώ καθυπολάλλομεν ώς παράνομον) Therefore, we imposed an excommunication on him for (probably) being adulterous, (ταύτην δέ τήν Σουλτάναν διεχωρίσαμε έκεινου έκκλησιαστικώς), whereas we (the ecclesiastical court) separated the lady from him [that is by granting her a divorce] according to the Church rules, (επί τώ συζευχθήναι ετέρω άνδρί) in order that she gets married to another man, (χρήζουσαν τών προς ζωάρκειαν άναγκαίων) as she was in need of means for living, (όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς) and with a view to preventing her soul from being endangered [or, in another rendition, with a view to preventing her from being mentally disturbed].

    In a construction according to modern standards, I would rewrite: "Ταύτου χάριν έκεινον μέν άφορισμώ καθυπολάλλομεν ώς παράνομον, ταύτην δέ τήν Σουλτάναν, χρήζουσαν τών προς ζωάρκειαν άναγκαίων και όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς, διεχωρίσαμε έκεινου έκκλησιαστικώς, επί τώ συζευχθήναι ετέρω άνδρί."

    According to the text, the facts are: the husband was excommunicated and the woman was officially granted a divorce, so as to be free to remarry. όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς is an ambiguous point if seen separately. But, if the case is the same with that of the first excerpt, then, imo, the translation is the first one, that is ‘with a view to preventing her soul from being endangered’, due to her possible falling into a moral lapse (prostitution). The view of the woman converting to Islam is out of the question, I think, as there is no such indication.
     

    greeksources

    Member
    Turkish
    I am not absolutely sure that the two excerpts you quoted refer to same case -and you haven’t said that. In case they do, the link between the two, which could offer a help, is missing. Anyway, the first excerpt has already been translated with much fidelity, in my opinion. As for the second excerpt, one can read:

    (Ταύτου χάριν έκεινον μέν άφορισμώ καθυπολάλλομεν ώς παράνομον) Therefore, we imposed an excommunication on him for (probably) being adulterous, (ταύτην δέ τήν Σουλτάναν διεχωρίσαμε έκεινου έκκλησιαστικώς), whereas we (the ecclesiastical court) separated the lady from him [that is by granting her a divorce] according to the Church rules, (επί τώ συζευχθήναι ετέρω άνδρί) in order that she gets married to another man, (χρήζουσαν τών προς ζωάρκειαν άναγκαίων) as she was in need of means for living, (όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς) and with a view to preventing her soul from being endangered [or, in another rendition, with a view to preventing her from being mentally disturbed].

    In a construction according to modern standards, I would rewrite: "Ταύτου χάριν έκεινον μέν άφορισμώ καθυπολάλλομεν ώς παράνομον, ταύτην δέ τήν Σουλτάναν, χρήζουσαν τών προς ζωάρκειαν άναγκαίων και όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς, διεχωρίσαμε έκεινου έκκλησιαστικώς, επί τώ συζευχθήναι ετέρω άνδρί."

    According to the text, the facts are: the husband was excommunicated and the woman was officially granted a divorce, so as to be free to remarry. όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς is an ambiguous point if seen separately. But, if the case is the same with that of the first excerpt, then, imo, the translation is the first one, that is ‘with a view to preventing her soul from being endangered’, due to her possible falling into a moral lapse (prostitution). The view of the woman converting to Islam is out of the question, I think, as there is no such indication.
    Thank you very much for your explanation Ioanell! In your view, as far as I understand, you think that όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς has a religious connotation, not a psychological one...and I should eliminate the latter meaning I guess...
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    In your view, as far as I understand, you think that όπος μή κυνδυνεύση ψυχικώς has a religious connotation
    This is true as No 1 option, as long as your second excerpt is related to the first one you quoted (and this for an obvious reason, the court's fear for the woman's falling into a moral lapse). But, although I noted that, you haven't confirned it so far.
     
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