Hindi: व

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by flyinfishjoe, Jun 29, 2011.

  1. flyinfishjoe Senior Member

    American English
    Sometimes when reading Hindi articles, I come across "व" used alone in a sentence. For example:

    इस्लामाबाद व काबूल की तुलना नहीं की जा सकती: पाक उच्चायुक्त (islaamabaad va kaabuul kii tulnaa nahiiN kii jaa saktii: paak uccayukt)

    Although it doesn't appear in McGregor's dictionary, I presume this word means "and." Is this correct? Is it pronounced va, or possibly o? I am not familiar at all with Urdu, but isn't the o sound written with the same letter as v?
  2. greatbear Banned

    India - Hindi & English
    Yes, "va" (व) and "avam" (एवं) are also used to mean "and", mostly in a more literary register of Hindi.
    Pronounced just like you see it: "va" [və].
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    To place this "va" in its proper perspective, here is a couplet from the immortal Urdu poet, Ghalib.

    nahiiN kuchh subHah-o-zunnaar ke phande meN giiraa'ii
    vafaa-daarii meN ShaiKh-o-Barhaman kii aazmaa'ish hai

    There is no real captivating hold in the rosary nor the cross thread.

    Indeed the ShaiKh and the Brahman are under scrutiny for their loyalty.

    [Translations rarely do justice to the original!]

    This "va' is part and parcel of Urdu language and it is especially prevalent in poetry. It is pronounced both as "va" and "-o-", but the "-o-" pronunciation is the norm when reciting poetry. Along with the "izaafat"* and this "-o-" known as "vaav-i-rabt or "vaa'o 'aatifah" [the joing vaa'o/the conjunctive particle], a distinct Persian flavour is fused into Urdu, for these features are ultimately of Persian origin.

    * Here are a couple of examples of "izaafat"

    Diivaan-i-Ghalib/Diivaan-e-Ghalib [Ghalib's collection of odes]

    dil-i-naadaaN/dil-e-naadaaN [foolish heart]

  4. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi

    QP SaHEb,

    Just to add a little more and also mention one important point.

    The wa is ultimately from Arabic, I think, becasue in Pahlavi 'and' was 'ud'. Now it is possible that this ud gave to u / o we have now in Farsi and Urdu. But even in Farsi I've heard and read و as wa. It is of Semitic origin, I'm fairly sure.

    So I feel this wa و came to Persian then Urdu & Hindi from Arabic where it has many meanings. Often it is used to mean and but is also used for contrast, for emphasizing / strengthening what is meant etc., e.g.

    الفتيان والفتيات al-fatyaan wal fatyaat = boys and girls

    هرج و مرج harjun wa marjun / harj wa marj (harj o marj in Urdu) = jumble, tumult, intense confusion.

    جن و بشر – pronounced with full endings as jinnun wa basharun, but normally pronounced jinn wa bashar in Arabic, and jinn o bashar in Persian and Urdu, both in poetry and speech. Just like we also say qalam o kaaghaz to mean pen and paper.

    Here is another one from Ghalib:

    گو ہاتھ کو جنبش نہیں ، آنکھوں میں تو دم ہے
    رہنے دو ابھی ساغر و مینا میرے آگے

    go haath ko jumbish naiiN, aaNk-hoN meiN to dam hai

    rahne do abhii saaghar o miinaa mere aage

    A somewhat loose translation:

    Though the hand is weak, the eyes have vim and verve

    For now let the goblet and the wine remain before me

    We’ll of course read flyinfishjoe’s above example in Hindi as:

    इस्लामाबाद व काबूल
    islaamaabaad wa kaabul

    In Urdu we can read it both as:

    إسلام آباد و كابل
    islaamaabaad o kaabul

    and as,

    islaamaabaad wa kaabul
    – by placing a stress here on wa in our speech we can also emphasize that both are involved / are together.

    For those who may not know / are getting confused,
    we usually use the "-o-" pronunciation also in normal speech and reading prose, apart from its use in poetry. So for the above example, we'd normally go for the first, i.e.the -o- form.
  5. tonyspeed Senior Member

    English & Creole - Jamaica

    It actually is there. Pass the original व entry. Then pass all the nasalized words that begin with वं, and it will be the first entry after that.

    व from Arabic va. 1) and दिन में व रात में ...

    Thank everyone for their explanations. I often wondered what -o- was.
  6. omlick Senior Member

    Portland, Oregon, USA
    American English
    I knew it was Arabic because I knew it from Hebrew ( It is the same word used in Hebrew as well. The letter vav "ו" in Hebrew means "and.") and was surprised when I first encountered it in Hindi writing. I think it is just and alternative to "aur" for most Hindi speakers.
  7. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    After posting I too had a look at my Hebrew dictionary and there it was, the letter vav, for and ! So it obviously is Semitic! I had wondered if the Middle Persian ud -> the Modern Persian u / o, which we then adopted in Urdu. But apprently not as in Persian grammar textbooks too you see it as va and -o-, depending, and the former is a give away.

    Of course! But that is how it came to be used
    originally in Urdu:و va / -o- = اور aur = and, finding its way into everyday Hindi: va / -o- = और aur.

    We use the -o- from fairly often as it makes speaking / reading smoother compared to the use of aur.

  8. flyinfishjoe Senior Member

    American English
    Thanks everyone, it makes sense now. :)
  9. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    You are welcome!
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
  11. tonyspeed Senior Member

    English & Creole - Jamaica
    ^^ It was taken directly from Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary, McGregor.
  12. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The "va" in Persian being of Arabic origins is a possibility but I have my doubts.

    Steingass provides the Classical Persian vowel system pretty accurately. As you have indicated, the word for "and" in Persian was -u- (equivalent to a pesh). When the Persian language began to be written in the Arabic alphabet which normally showed no short vowels, there was no real problem when a word like "gul" was simply written as "gl". But to indicate -u- for and, the next best thing was to use an Arabic letter which was connected to -u-, namely "waaw".

    So, aab-u-havaa was written as
    آب و ھوا

    du (two) as

    tu (thou) as

    chu (like) as

    In all such words the -u- had a "pesh" sound, just like the pesh vowel in "gul". Even today, in Dari, the word for "two" is NOT "do" but, "du" and for "thou", it is "tu" and NOT "tuu" (as we pronounce the Persian
    تو nor "to" as the Iranians pronounce the تو).This -u- sound over a period of time became a majhuul -o-sound, as in "aab-o-havaa" and the Iranian "to" and "do". (Our Persian "tuu" could be influenced by our Urdu "tuu". Same goes for "do"). So, apart from the Dari "du" and "tu", the-u- sound on the whole has become-o-, just like the izaafat-i-, has become the majhuul -e- in Indo-Persian, Dari and Iranian Persian.

    What is all this leading to. It is this representation of the original -u- with the Arabic Waaw, that could be a "polluting" factor in our thinking that the Persian '-u-' is of Arabic origins. It is quite possible that the letter waaw representing the sound -u-in the written documents began to be read as one would read an Arabic "waaw", ie. "wa". This then fluctuated between wa and va.

    I don't have any scholarly proof for this. Just think of it as Qurehpor's hunch!!

  13. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    An interesting construction indeed!

    I would agree with with QP SaHEb that in Urdu we don't use din wa raat. We always say din raat / raat din = day and night / night and day. Of course have shab o roz = raat aur din, which mean the same thing as the earlier forms. So we normally say:

    usne raat din kaam kiyaa =
    unse raat aur din kaam kiyaa
    = unse shab o roz kaam kiyaa = He / She worked night and day.
  14. eskandar

    eskandar Moderator

    English (US)
    I believe your hunch is quite right! In Middle Persian, logograms (huzvarishn) were often used where words were written according to their Aramaic meaning but pronounced according to Middle Persian. For example, shaah (king) was written MLK
    (Aramaic 'malka', cognate to Arabic ملك 'malik') but read as 'shaah'. (See more examples here). As far as I know the Persian use of و (or its Aramaic equivalent) began as a logogram for 'u' and continued in New Persian written in the Arabic alphabet, with و primarily representing 'u' (later 'o') and then later it began to be read as 'wa' (later 'va') as well.
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    baraa-ye-afkaar-i-shumaa tashakkur miikunam.

    yek su'aal. agar shumaa az kaampiyuutar-i-Khuditaan duur hastiid, che taur miitavaaniid baa maa suHbat kuniid? iin karishamah ast yaa nah?
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2011
  16. eskandar

    eskandar Moderator

    English (US)
    !قریشپور صاحب، خواهش می‌کنم. من دیگر از کامپوتر دور نیستم اما یادم رفته بود پیغام زیر را پاک کنم. از اینکه بهم تذکره دادید تشکر می‌کنم و از اینکه بی‌دقتی خودم باعث آشفتگی بود معذرت می‌خواهم
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  17. rahulbemba

    rahulbemba Senior Member

    You are right. It means "and". And it is pronounced as "va" and not as "o".
  18. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    As a matter of interest, can you provide any literary examples of this usage in Hindi? How does this "va" differ from "aur" and "tatha"?
  19. rahulbemba

    rahulbemba Senior Member

    Its use is similar to "aur" and "tatha". It depends on which we want to use. I have seen it used more in written Hindi literature than spoken. Here is an example from the recent times:

    बच्चों के दिलों में खास पहचान बना चुके छोटा भीम और कृष्ण-बलराम अब विदेश में धूम मचाने की तैयारी में हैं। कृष्ण और बलराम जहां इंडोनेशिया जा रहे हैं, वहीं छोटा भीम मलेशिया व ईरान में दस्तक देगा।
  20. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you for the quote. You said "va", "aur" and "tatha" are similar. If they are similar, then they are not the same. So, what is the difference between them?
  21. greatbear Banned

    India - Hindi & English
    "tatha" is hardly used, except in mythological TV serials! People would look at you askance if you were to use it.
    "va" and "aivam" are thought to be more "literary"; hence, people sometimes use it, especially in print, to sound more refined. They are much less rare than "tatha" and used in all contexts, and at times spoken too ("aivam" seems to me spoken more than "va", but "va" written more - that is just my impression, I might be wrong).
    "aur" is the commonly used word for "and". Some of the speakers who mix Hindi and English a lot might also use "and" itself.
  22. rahulbemba

    rahulbemba Senior Member

    Even I agree with this...
  23. rahulbemba

    rahulbemba Senior Member

    I said originally, < Its use is similar to "aur" and "tatha". >
  24. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    Thank you very much indeed Greatbear Jii for a very informative reply. I am quite surprised at the use of "va", and that too in spoken Hindi! In Urdu, "va" is used only in Persian type constructions. Would you say sentences like ,"maiN va Qureshpor aaj kal "va" par baHs kar rahe haiN"? "ham ne baazaar se ghaRii va juute Khariide"?
  25. greatbear Banned

    India - Hindi & English
    More "maiN aivam Qureshpor aaj kal "va" par baHs kar rahe haiN"? but yes, very much "ham ne baazaar se ghaRii va juute Khariide"?
  26. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    It is very interesting to see that you use this: "ham ne baazaar se ghaRii va juute Khariide".
    We, and now I mean not just Urduphones from UP and Bihar but also the Hindiphone circles from the same area I happen to move in, do not use va like this, esp. in speech. We stick to the earleir grammatical rule of using it with words of Persian-Arabic origin. So your sentence for the likes of us would most commonly be: "ham ne baazaar se ghaRii aur juute xariide". However, in rapid-fire speech it can also sound like: "ham ne baazaar se ghaRii o juute xariide"(!). I've always understood this o as a truncation of aur.
  27. greatbear Banned

    India - Hindi & English
    Yes, I hardly think that people start wondering about from where do words originate before speaking, and so of course "va" is used for "and" regardless of word origins. I have never heard the "o" form though.
  28. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    It appears that you did n't read the whole of "Madhushaalaa"!

    मुसलमान औ' हिन्दू है दो, एक, मगर, उनका प्याला,
    एक, मगर, उनका मदिरालय, एक, मगर, उनकी हाला,
    दोनों रहते एक न जब तक मस्जिद मन्दिर में जाते,
    बैर बढ़ाते मस्जिद मन्दिर मेल कराती मधुशाला!।५०।
  29. rahulbemba

    rahulbemba Senior Member

    Well, this औ' which you are quoting from the eminent Hindi poet Harivansh Rai Bachchan's poetry, is not "va" व. It is a form of "aur", as used at times, many a time in poetry. :)

    It is not व, which is used differently, and I have given examples too. Please refer to those.
  30. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    Let me quote someone who knows a little more than both you and me and by doing so close this chapter once and for all. This is from R.S.McGregor's Outline of Hindi Grammar, Third Edition , Oxford University Press (page 200) and I quote verbatim.

    "Note also the Persian forms -ओ--o-, व va, used in expressions of a more or less stereotyped nature, the first very largely in expressions of specifically Urdu character, the second more widely.

    दिलोजान से dilojaan se, with heart and soul
    आबोहवा aabohavaa, climate (water and air)
    नाम व पता naam va pataa, name and address

    ये जानवर दिन में व रात में शिकार करते हैं ye jaanvar din meN va raat meN shikaar karte haiN, These animals hunt (both) by day and by night".

    So, you can see that the "va" whether pronounced "o" or "va" is linked to Hindi via Urdu.

    As for Shri Harivansh Rai Bachchan, he was very much influenced by Omar Khayyam's Rubaa3iyaat (Quatrains) and translated them from Farsi to Hindi. "Madushaalaa" is also in the form of quatrains. The existence of Urdu words like "mai", "saaqii" and others and expressions such as मुसलमान औ' हिन्दू in the poem is therefore of no surprise. By the way he learnt his Urdu (at least the writing) from his mother. I believe his son Amitabh might also know Urdu. In "kyaa bhulaa'uuN kyaa yaad karuuN", he talks about his learning to read Urdu and Amit 's preoccupation with the same.

    Last edited: Sep 19, 2011
  31. flyinfishjoe Senior Member

    American English
    In case anyone cares, here is another example of va I spotted today in a BBC comment:

    ये सिर्फ़ उच्च वर्ग का घमंड है. ये लोग मानते हैं कि वे सबसे बुद्धिमान हैं और जो अंग्रेज़ी में लिखना व बोलना नहीं जानते वो उनसे कम अक़्ल रखते हैं.
    ye sirf ucc varg kaa ghamaND hai. ye log maante haiM ki ve sabse buddhimaan haiM aur jo aNgrezii meM likhnaa va bolnaa nahiiM jaante vo unse kam aql rakhte haiM.
  32. rahulbemba

    rahulbemba Senior Member

    Very good example flyinfishjoe.

    I have Hindi as mother tongue and I know the examples are too many... Many of my friends who speak pure Hindi (with fewer insertions of English and foreign words which are so common now in cities), they use व/ "va". Even I use it when I write in Hindi, but almost none in spoken Hindi, personally.

  33. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    At what point would "pure Hindi" cease being "pure Hindi"? How would you define "foreign words"? Is "fewer" quantifiable?

    Would you care to elaborate on this please?
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011
  34. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    In the small amount of Hindi literature that I have encountered, I have come across "aur" and "tatha" much more than "va". I have n't yet seen "evam" but no doubt this would be used in literature too. The point I am making is that "aur" and "tatha" appear to be much more common.
  35. greatbear Banned

    India - Hindi & English
    "aur" is certainly very common. Otherwise, in Hindi media, "va" is also very common. I have found "tatha" to be used the least, unless one is reading a novel like Chanakya.
  36. flyinfishjoe Senior Member

    American English
    I've only seen va in the news-media: newspapers, BBC Hindi, TV tickers, etc. I've yet to see it in books or speech.
  37. greatbear Banned

    India - Hindi & English
    Yes; also quite common in Hindi magazines. Hardly used in speech though.
  38. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I agree about the lack of va in Hindi speech! This has been my experience too! As I said earlier:

    Also agree that it seems to be used in Hindi media rather than books so it is not literary usage in the end! May be more like journalese!
  39. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I've just spotted the similar construction in the Urdu text on the label of a well-known 'sharbat' that has been discussed on the forum before.
    The text reads as follows: فرحت بخش پھلوں و پھولوں سے تیار کردہ -

    I'd like to know how would you all read it out, o/u or -va-?
  40. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I think in this case we would have no choice but to use "va".
  41. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I don't see other possibility either, it is of course -va-. Thank you for your assistance!

    Please accept my apologies for not having provided the transcription of Urdu text in this thread which is open for Hindi but there had been much reference to Urdu, Persian, Arabic and other Semitic languages (by the way, is it still the current name for those languages?) that I thought Urdu reference wouldn't have been uncalled for.

    The text reads as follows: farHat-baxsh phaloN va (o, u, o~u*) phuuloN se taiyaar kardah.

    *As it does appear, in Urdu only the -va- possibility is applicable. This follows of course the Persian rules and may hint to the questions of its usage in Hindi, somehow related.
  42. hindiurdu Senior Member

    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    I think some of this discussion is a bit off. 'व' is usually usually used with Sanskritized modes of writing in Hindi, and occurs heavily in religious literature -
    - Ramayan - "सिद्धाश्रम के तपस्वियों ने राम व लक्ष्मण का प्रेमपूर्वक स्वागत किया"
    - Gita -"संशुद्दी ज्ञान व योग को सुस्थिति"

    And it appears to occur in languages other than HU - सातपुड्याच्या कुशीतलं -सरदार सरोवर धरणाची निर्मितीही अशीच महाराष्ट्र व गुजरात यांच्या (Marathi). You can often see it in excessively Sanskritized Government of India usage. Plus I see examples of the वा form in Sanskrit, where it means "also/or/like" -
    - Upanishads - "व्याघ्रो वा सिंहो वा वृको वा वराहो वा कीटो वा पतंगों (vyaghro va simho va vriko va kiiTo va patango - tiger also lion also wolf also boar also insect also moth)"

    This seems like it might be a genuine proto-Indo-Iranian word, which would explain how it can be regarded as excessively Persian and excessively Sanskrit at the same time.
  43. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The question posed here could easily be answered if one can quote occurrences of "va" from Sanskrit literature. The existence ofو in Persian and Urdu is beyond question and examples can be provided at the drop of a hat!

  44. hindiurdu Senior Member

    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    Well considering the facts:
    a) वा is pretty rampant in Sanskrit and means something broader that includes 'and'. [Note that the Persian و is also usually pronounced वा - somewhat distinct from the व diction used in "shuddh" Hindi].
    b) व is used much more frequently and freely in "pure register" Hindi as in "pure register" Urdu.
    c) व is preferentially seen at a much higher frequency in Sanskritized religious literature.
    d) In artificially Sanskritized speeches from government officials/politicians, व has a pretty large frequency.

    All these indicate, at least to me, a likely tadbhavization process (वा → व) at play. Obviously this is not a direct reference precisely demonstrating such descent. Also, it doesn't rule out this being an instance of the "Persianization was re-Sanskritization" hypothesis. In other words Sanskrit forms that were lost in Prakrits which were restored due to Persian influence. श (sh) had earlier been given as a possible example of this. One cannot help but wonder if Pashto had-had the same influence that Persian did, would we today be pronouncing ष (x-sh mix) perfectly and then debating whether it came from Pashto or Sanskrit? How could this possibly ever be settled? I suspect it can't. Maybe by showing that it disappeared in an interim period and then reappeared, which is totally possible. People using 'व' that consider it highly Sanskritic are correct. It is. People who consider this highly Persian are also correct. It is. Even if श was reintroduced by Persian and then retroactively began to be applied to Sanskrit-descent words again, is pronouncing आकाश as "aakaash" instead of "aakaas" a Persianized thing to do? I can see how two people can legitimately have differing viewpoints on this even based on the same set of agreed-upon facts.
  45. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    There are two words for “and” in Persian, which, confusingly, are both written as و.

    There is the inherited Persian word u, from Middle Persian ud, from Old Persian uta. This is purely Indo-European. In modern Persian this is normally only used if the two words connected by it are in close junction.

    Then there is the Arabic word wa. This is pure Semitic.

    It is true that in Middle Persian (Pahlavi) the conjunction ud is written with the Aramaeogram W. Aramaic w-, wa- is indeed cognate with Arabic wa, but this has no bearing on New Persian or Hindi/Urdu. The Muslims in Persia and India could not read Pahlavi and were not affected by the vagrancies of Pahlavi spelling.

    None of this has anything to do with Sanskrit vā, which is an enclitic and means “or”.
  46. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I have not found any ''va'' in Sanskrit that would mean ''and''. Instead, I remember the most common ''and'' in Sanskrit is ''cha''. Neither ''vaa'' nor ''va'' has the meaning of ''and'' among so numerous meanings.

    Apte's Dictionary

    a. Powerful, strong. -वः 1 Air, wind. -2 The arm. -3 N. of Varuṇa. -4 Conciliation. -5 Ad- dressing. -6 Auspiciousness. -7 Residence, dwelling. -8 The ocean. -9 A tiger. -1 Cloth. -11 Reverence. -12 N. of Rāhu. -13 The residence of Varuṇa. -14 the esculent root of the water lily. -वम् N. of Varuṇa (Medinī). -ind. Like, as; as in मणी बोष्ट्रस्य लम्बेते प्रियौ वत्सतरौ मम Sk. (where the word may be व or वा); Mb.12.177.12 (com. वाशब्द इवार्थे).

    Monier Williams Dictionary
    2 m. (only L. ) air , wind
    the arm
    N. of वरुण
    the ocean , water
    a dwelling
    a tiger
    the esculent root of the water-
    वा 2 f. going
    वा 2 f. hurting
    वा 2 f. an arrow
    वा 2 f. weaving
    2 n. a weaver (?). a sort of incantation or मन्त्र (of which the object is the deity वरुण)
    2 n. = प्र-चतस्
    2 mfn. strong , powerful.
    3 ind. = इव , like , as MBh. Ka1v. &c (in some more or less doubtful cases).

    वा 1 ind. or (excluded , like the Lat. ve , from the first place in a sentence , and generally immediately following , rarely and only m.c. preceding , the word to which it refers) RV. &c &c (often used in disjunctive sentences ; वा-वा , " either " -- " or " , " on the one side " -- " on the other " ; न वा -- वा or -- वा , " neither " -- " nor " ; वा न-वा , " either not " -- " or " ; यदि वा-वा , " whether " -- " or " ; in a sentence containing more than two members वा is nearly always repeated , although if a negative is in the first clause it need not be so repeated ; वा is sometimes interchangeable with and अपि , and is frequently combined with other particles , esp. with अथ , अथो* , उत , किम् , यद् , यदि q.v. [e.g. अथ वा , " or else "] ; it is also sometimes used as an expletive)
    either-or not , optionally Ka1tyS3r. Mn. &c (in gram. वा is used in a rule to denote its being optional e.g. Pa1n2. 1-2 , 13 ; 35 &c )
    as , like (= इव) Pa1rGr2. MBh. &c
    just , even , indeed , very (= एव , laying stress on the preceding word) Ka1tyS3r. Ka1v.
    but even if , even supposing (followed by a future) Pan5c. v , 36÷37
    however , nevertheless Ba1dar. Ba1lar.
    (after a rel. or interr.) possibly , perhaps , I dare say MBh. Ka1v. &c (e.g. किं वा शकुन्तले*त्य् अस्य मातुर् आख्या , " is his mother's name perhaps शकुन्तला? " S3ak. vii , 20÷21 ; को वा or के वा followed by a negative may in such cases be translated by " every one , all " e.g. के वा न स्युः परिभव-पदं निष्फला*रम्-भ-यत्नाः , " everybody whose efforts are fruitless is an object of contempt " Megh. 55) .
    वा 2 cl.2 P. ( Dha1tup. xxiv , 42) व/आति (pf. ववौ Br. MBh. &c ; aor. अवासीत् Br. ; fut. वास्यति Megh. ; inf. वातुम् Hariv. ) , to blow (as the wind) RV. &c[...]
  47. hindiurdu Senior Member

    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    ^But doesn't this indicate a word of many connotations, including or, even, also, however, etc? On top of that you see many constructions in Sanskrit that use the form "A va B va C va D va E" when many objects are being presented in a connected way as alternatives or complements. Why couldn't this become an 'and' form? Otherwise, think about what you're saying - a Persian word which is rarely used in everyday organic ways in high-register Urdu is being used massively in high-Sanskrit register Hindi and Marathi, especially for religious purposes. Anything is possible, of course, but seems counter-intuitive. Why would this happen? Look at सुभाषित रत्न (hundreds of occurrences in this alone). Think of any two even loosely connected things and stick a व in between and run an exact search. More often than not I get hits. "तुलसी+व+सूरदास", "हिन्दी+व+संस्कृत", "मोटा+व+पतला", "लम्बा+व+छोटा", "लाहौर+व+अमृतसर", "फ़ारसी+व+संस्कृत", "कुत्ता+व+बिल्ली", "रूई+व+ऊन". And, since ओ/औ and व and very distinct in Devnagari, what would account for this? The only Persian route I can think of is that Persian influence made the word stick with a specific interpretation in HU/Marathi where it once had a broader meaning. च is of course common in Sanskrit for 'and', especially in Classical Sanskrit.

    Update: This was also too good to pass up - a nineteenth century Marathi version of what seems to be a Jewish holy text!
  48. hindiurdu Senior Member

    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    fdb ji, interesting and useful. I looked at http://books.google.com/books?id=cWDhKTj1SBYC&pg=PA268 and it seemed to be delving into how Indo-Iranian (Avestan and Vedic) diverged from other IE in their treatment of va. Perhaps you can take a look and comment. It talks about "yuvaam" ("you two") and "enclitic forms of the dual".
  49. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Burrow is discussing a different word: Avestan vā “the two of us” (Vedic vām).
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2012
  50. hindiurdu Senior Member

    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    Interesting. The more I think about it, the more the original hypothesis seems to be true: this is indeed a Persian borrowing into "pure" Hindi which has somehow made a place for itself and been massively adopted, especially for highly Sanskritized and/or religious purposes. Very interesting!

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