Hindi & Bengali: transliteration of foreign names into their scripts

[Psi-Lord]

Straightforward question – would the five proper names transcribed below be acceptable to native speakers of Hindi and Bengali?

HI: नेउज़ा, मार्सेल, लेतिसिया, मिगेल, दानियेल / दानिएल.

BN: নেউজা, মার্সেল, লেতিসিয়া, মিগেল, দানিয়েল / দানিএল.

If not, why?

Reasoning behind it:

Are there rules of any kind when transliterating foreign names into Hindi and Bengali, or should one just stick to a compromise between pronunciation and orthography?

Even when it comes to English names, searching e.g. Wikipedia articles can lead to differences in transcriptions of the same names; however, when it comes to names from other languages, it often looks like whoever wrote the articles came up with their own ideas on how to tackle proper names (not infrequently missing the point entirely).

The choice between long and short vowels when dealing with languages that have got no such distinction has always intrigued me too.

 

[Dib]

Bengali versions are fine. Between দানিয়েল and দানিএল, definitely দানিয়েল will be prefered. Yes, you are right. In Bengali at least, every writer comes up with their own ad-hoc transcription.

 

[littlepond]

They look fine in Hindi, but maybe if you could come up with some other variant for "नेउज़ा", it would be much better. Though maybe it's not possible. (Just that नेउज़ा is a bit hard to read for Hindi-trained eyes, otherwise phonetically not an issue.)

 

[Psi-Lord]

Between দানিয়েল and দানিএল, definitely দানিয়েল will be prefered.

That was definitely a point I was curious about!

They look fine in Hindi, but maybe if you could come up with some other variant for "नेउज़ा", it would be much better. Though maybe it's not possible. (Just that नेउज़ा is a bit hard to read for Hindi-trained eyes, otherwise phonetically not an issue.)

That’s my mum’s name, and indeed, I often face ‘problems’ when transliterating it into certain scripts, because the falling diphthong in her name – [eu̯] / [ew] / [eʊ] (source references vary when transcribing it) – seems to be somewhat unusual, much to my surprise.

Years ago, a Pakistani acquaintance suggested that I spelt it نیوزہ in Urdu, but we’d discussed it for a bit before settling on that exactly because of the diphthong, and, even then, the Perso-Arabic script is ambiguous about it anyway.

Pretty much the only example I could find with a similar diphthong for Bengali was the Romanian currency, leu, which is transcribed as লিউ in its Wikipedia article; there wasn't one for it in Hindi, though, but Marathi uses लेउ .

Of course, any better-suited suggestions are more than welcome!

 

[littlepond]

Well, then, of course, nothing can be done about it! If the pronunciation is approximate to "नेयुज़ा", maybe you can try that: as it's easier on the eyes. However, if you are keen on retaining the exact pronunciation, "नेउज़ा" seems to be only way of transliterating it in Hindi.

 

[Dib]

Pretty much the only example I could find with a similar diphthong for Bengali was the Romanian currency, leu, which is transcribed as লিউ in its Wikipedia article; there wasn't one for it in Hindi, though, but Marathi uses लेउ .

Actually it is a pretty basic diphthong in Bengali. কেউ (someone), ঢেউ (wave), ফেউ ("howling" of a jackal - specifically the warning call they make on seeing a tiger ... yeah, we used to be a jackal and tiger-filled area), কেউটে (cobra), খেউড় (vulgar songs/words), দেউড়ি (gateway), নেউল (mongoose), etc. are all common words. There's also the dated, now chiefly poetic word দেউটি (lamp).

 

[Psi-Lord]

Actually it is a pretty basic diphthong in Bengali.

Indeed. In retrospect, I think every resource on Bengali mentions how rich it is in diphthongs in contrast with the Indo-Aryan languages of other branches; the very Wikipedia article on Bengali phonology gives ঢেউ as an example for /eu̯/. I was so focused on finding out how to transliterate a foreign word (and with an underlying Hindi template in mind) that I became blind to what Bengali had to offer natively!…

 

[rehanelbengali]

Straightforward question – would the five proper names transcribed below be acceptable to native speakers of Hindi and Bengali?

HI: नेउज़ा, मार्सेल, लेतिसिया, मिगेल, दानियेल / दानिएल.

BN: নেউজা, মার্সেল, লেতিসিয়া, মিগেল, দানিয়েল / দানিএল.

If not, why?

Yes, and between দানিএল and দানিয়েল, use দানিয়েল.

Are there rules of any kind when transliterating foreign names into Hindi and Bengali, or should one just stick to a compromise between pronunciation and orthography?

Even when it comes to English names, searching e.g. Wikipedia articles can lead to differences in transcriptions of the same names; however, when it comes to names from other languages, it often looks like whoever wrote the articles came up with their own ideas on how to tackle proper names (not infrequently missing the point entirely).

The choice between long and short vowels when dealing with languages that have got no such distinction has always intrigued me too.

As for Bengali, there are some rules.
1. Long vowels ঈ (ī) and ঊ (ū) are not used to transliterate foreign words, even if they are pronounced with long vowels. ই and উ are used instead, whether the vowel in the original language is pronounced as long or short.
2. Use conjunct consonants for consonant clusters wherever possible to avoid mispronunciation. This rule does not apply to Arabic or Persian words, where conjuncts should be always avoided unless it’s a geminated (double) consonant which can create a conjunct with itself.
3. Avoid using hôsonto (্) unless there is great chance of mispronunciation.
4. If there is already a transliteration that has been standardised, then use that.
5. ঋ is never used when transliterating foreign words.
6. The ng-sound in the transcription foreign words, if not followed by a vowel, should always be written using ং, not ঙ্. For example, “bank” is written ব্যাংক, not ব্যাঙ্ক. However, if a final ng-sound is followed by a suffix starting with a vowel, ং is replaced by ঙ. For example, ফ্রিলান্সিং + এর = ফ্রিলান্সিঙের, not ফ্রিলান্সিংয়ের, ফ্রিলান্সিং-এর or ফ্রিলান্সিং এর.
7. The sh-sound is always written শ in foreign words. Never ষ or স.
8. The s-sound is always written স in foreign words, never শ or ষ. (ষ is never used in foreign words.)
9. The n-sound is always transcribed as ন in foreign words. Never ণ. If n forms a cluster with a j-sound or a ch-sound, then it’s written as ঞ্. For example, রেইঞ্জ (range), লাঞ্চ (lunch).
10. The English ay-sound may be either written এ or এই (এ being more common).
11. The a-sound as in “cat” may be written word-initially as অ্যা, এ্যা, or simply এ (অ্যা and এ being more common). Word-medially, it may be written as ্যা or ে.

 

[rehanelbengali]

I often face ‘problems’ when transliterating it into certain scripts, because the falling diphthong in her name – [eu̯] / [ew] / [eʊ] (source references vary when transcribing it) – seems to be somewhat unusual, much to my surprise.

In Bengali, this diphthong exists natively already in native words like কেউ (keu; someone), ঢেউ (dheu; wave), etc. Therefore, use এউ and write নেউজা.

Years ago, a Pakistani acquaintance suggested that I spelt it نیوزہ in Urdu, but we’d discussed it for a bit before settling on that exactly because of the diphthong, and, even then, the Perso-Arabic script is ambiguous about it anyway.

Yes, نيوزه or نيوزا will be good.

Pretty much the only example I could find with a similar diphthong for Bengali was the Romanian currency, leu, which is transcribed as লিউ in its Wikipedia article

Probably because of English influence.

 

[rehanelbengali]

নেউজা

Also, you may write it as নেওজা, which will be equally as good.