Hindi, Urdu: جب in lieu of تب

panjabigator

Senior Member
Am. English
I'm reading a book on partition which relies on transliterated oral histories to provide evidence to the author's narrative/argument. I've just encountered a rather odd sentence and seek your opinion. I'll post it in the transliterated verbatim, but know that it pains me to do so:
"ye kyon ahin kaha tha ke main apne mian ke qabar par fateha paṛhne jā rahi hun. Jab to shayad de deta mujhe visa."
From "The Long Partititon" by Vazira Zamindar (p236).

For the second sentence, I would have instinctively used تب and not جب and I don't believe I'm mistaken. The book has been poorly edited, with very little attention given to a correct transliteration (i.e., neither to the norms of standard Urdu nor to how the interlocutor relayed the information), so I wouldn't be surprised if this were a typing mistake (though 'j' is far from 't'). Or is this a 'permissible' sentence in prescriptive Urdu?

I need to get a lanyard that says "What would Ruth Laila Shmidt say?" or, better, "What would Faylasoof say?" :D
 
  • Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I'm reading a book on partition which relies on transliterated oral histories to provide evidence to the author's narrative/argument. I've just encountered a rather odd sentence and seek your opinion. I'll post it in the transliterated verbatim, but know that it pains me to do so:

    "ye kyon nahin kaha tha ke main apne mian kii qabr par fateha pahne jā rahi hun. Jab to shayad de deta mujhe visa."
    From "The Long Partititon" by Vazira Zamindar (p236).

    For the second sentence, I would have instinctively used تب and not جب and I don't believe I'm mistaken. The book has been poorly edited, with very little attention given to a correct transliteration (i.e., neither to the norms of standard Urdu nor to how the interlocutor relayed the information), so I wouldn't be surprised if this were a typing mistake (though 'j' is far from 't'). Or is this a 'permissible' sentence in prescriptive Urdu?

    I need to get a lanyard that says "What would Ruth Laila Shmidt say?" or, better, "What would Faylasoof say?"

    I would agree with you here, Gator Saheb! Instinctively, تب fits better. However, the use of جب in a sentence like this is not unusual.

    BTW, we say qabr (with a sukoon in <b>, although qabar is heard a lot too) and it is feminine!

    میرے خیال میں آپ شاید شرارت پر تلے ہیں ;)
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Thanks for the confirmation. Just want to point out, the phrase was verbatim from the book, but I appreciate the corrections to standard Urdu. Again, the transliteration was horrible and, for an academic text, I expected a bit more rigor and consistency in phonetic representations. Sounds were mistakenly labeled as retroflex in many other examples, which bugged me to no end!

    Magar phir bhii, "FLS yahaan par kyaa kahte" ghair munaasib to nahii hoga! Thanks!
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Curious, would a similar construction be common in Punjabi? (I've never heard this at home).

    Punjabigator Jii, Thank you for starting this thread. This use of "jab" for "tab" has also "bugged" me for a long time. I blamed the cause of this "bug" on my Punjabiness and thought the error must be mine. I have heard this usage amongst ahl-i-zabaaN where, instinctively, I would use "tab". Take a look at the following scenario.

    A. chalo, baahar chalte haiN..

    B. nahiiN yaar, mujhe to saKht bhuuk lagii hu'ii hai.

    A. jabhii to maiN kah rahaa huuN kih baahar chalte haiN. kahiiN se kuchh nah kuchh khaa leN ge.

    I feel like putting "tabhii" here. I am probably wrong in suggesting this.
     

    tonyspeed

    Senior Member
    English & Creole - Jamaica
    I feel like putting "tabhii" here. I am probably wrong in suggesting this.

    in the oxford dictionary, tabhee is listed as "for that reason"amongst other things. jabhee is listed as "therefore" but is labeled colloquial speech. So I don't think it is standard in writing, it is standard for common speech.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Here is an example of jab for tab usage from Urdu literature.

    bayaan Khvaab kii tarah jo kar rahaa hai
    yih qissah hai jab kaa kih Aatish* javaaN thaa

    NB: In Urdu the word is pronounced as "aatish" for the correct "aatash"
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    Here are a couple more examples that I've run into in recent days of usages of jab where I might have expected tab.

    nah jaane unkii zindagii kahaaN se shuruu3 hotii hai. wahaaN se, jab wo paidaa hone kii Galatii kar chukii thiiN, yaa wahaaN se, jab wo ek nawaab begam ban kar aa'iiN aur chhapar-khaT par zindagii guzaarne lagiiN... yaa jab se, jab wo minnatoN-muraadoN se haar ga'iiN...
    - Ismat Chughtai, lihaaf

    pandrah baras kii 3umr se saa'ins meraa oRhnaa-bichhaunaa rahaa hai... shaa3arii aur falsafe ke liye nah mere paas furSat jab thii nah ab hai.
    - Qurratulain Hyder, patjhaR kii aawaaz
     

    littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    My personal opinion is that in such cases "jab" is more literary than the usual "tab." Meanwhile, in your second example, @aevynn jii, "jab" seems as normal as "tab" but in the first one, it does surprise me a bit.
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    My personal opinion is that in such cases "jab" is more literary than the usual "tab."

    I guess just the fact that these caught my attention while I was reading certainly means that it's uncommon in the colloquial variety I've been exposed to too. But apparently the quote in the OP is a from an oral transcription, and @Qureshpor jii later proposes a rather colloquial dialogue with this usage of jab in post #5, so I suppose some people must use this colloquially too.

    Meanwhile, in your second example, @aevynn jii, "jab" seems as normal as "tab" but in the first one, it does surprise me a bit.

    Interesting! I guess there do seem to be two functions of jab reflected in the examples of this thread.
    • jab as marking off the thing to which a relativizer refers --- Ismat Chughtai's usage in post #9 and the sher from @Qureshpor jii's post #8.
    • jab on its own without a relativizer, roughly carrying the sense of "then, at that time" --- Qurratulain Hyder's usage in post #8, the dialogue from @Qureshpor jii's post #5, and the usage in the OP.
    If Ismat Chughtai's usage surprises you more than the other one, perhaps that means that the latter situation is more common than the former...?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I guess just the fact that these caught my attention while I was reading certainly means that it's uncommon in the colloquial variety I've been exposed to too. But apparently the quote in the OP is a from an oral transcription, and @Qureshpor jii later proposes a rather colloquial dialogue with this usage of jab in post #5, so I suppose some people must use this colloquially too.

    Interesting! I guess there do seem to be two functions of jab reflected in the examples of this thread.
    • jab as marking off the thing to which a relativizer refers --- Ismat Chughtai's usage in post #9 and the sher from @Qureshpor jii's post #8.
    • jab on its own without a relativizer, roughly carrying the sense of "then, at that time" --- Qurratulain Hyder's usage in post #8, the dialogue from @Qureshpor jii's post #5, and the usage in the OP.
    If Ismat Chughtai's usage surprises you more than the other one, perhaps that means that the latter situation is more common than the former...?
    Yes aevynn SaaHib, my short dialogue is a made up one but I agree with you, this usage is not restricted to literary Urdu but also the spoken language too.
     
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