Hindi, Urdu: a half-full glass (objective predicatives outside a "ko")

MonsieurGonzalito

Senior Member
Castellano de Argentina
Friends,

The motivational phrase that "one has to see the glass haf-full" is rendered in this Hindi site as follows.

aur agar nakaaraatmak ko dekhne ke bajaay ham sakaaraatmak ko dekhte haiN?
aur agar gilaas ko aadhaa khaalii dekhne ke bajaay, ham gilaas ko aadhaa bharaa huaa dekhnaa shuruu karte haiN?
khud ko duusrii taraf rakhne se log jitnaa sochte haiN, usse kahiiN zyaadaa saral hotaa hai.


Shouldn't that have been something like:

ham aadhe bhare hue gilaas ko dekhnaa
looking [at the half-full glass]
............
direct object

Since what is half-full is the glass, rather than our way of looking at it?

Or perhaps "aadhaa bharaa huaa" is an objective predicative:
looking [at the glass] [half-full]
................... D.O .................pred.

and grammars are not telling me that objective predicatives outside a "direct object with ko" can be in direct case?


Let me invent some other example, to illustrate this, based on what my grammar says:

log dekhte haiN saaNp kaa ek joRaa lipTaa huaa

If I had used "ko" in the sentence above, can I still keep "lipTaa huaa" in direct case?

log saaNp ke ek joRe ko dekhte haiN lipTaa huaa ? or lipTe hue?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.


PS: Still, this other thread
Hindi, Urdu: kō in a past tense predicative
would suggest that adjectival things outside a predicative with "ko" would need to be in oblique. o_O
 
  • littlepond

    Senior Member
    Hindi
    Both
    ham gilaas ko aadhaa bharaa huaa dekhnaa shuruu karte haiN?
    and
    ham aadhe bhare hue gilaas ko dekhnaa

    are fine.

    log dekhte haiN saaNp kaa ek joRaa lipTaa huaa

    This is fine, though the conventional word order would be something like "log saaNp kaa ek joRaa lipTaa huaa dekhte haiN."
    If I had used "ko" in the sentence above, can I still keep "lipTaa huaa" in direct case?

    log saaNp ke ek joRe ko dekhte haiN lipTaa huaa ?

    Yes, this is also fine. Again, the conventional word order would be "log saaNp ke ek joRe ko lipTaa huaa dekhte haiN."

    If you were to say "lipTe hue," that would also be fine but it would introduce an ambiguity: "log while lipTe hue dekhte haiN saaNp ko" or "log dekhte haiN aise saaNpoN ko jo haiN lipTe hue"? But, of course, since mostly context will make things clear, you could use it.
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    While both are grammatically correct, there is a difference in syntax/nuance between

    (A) ham aadhe bhare (hue) gilaas ko dekhte haiN.
    (B) ham gilaas ko aadhaa bharaa (huaa) dekhte haiN.

    The former just says something like "we see the half-full glass." The latter says something like "we see the glass to be half full."

    I'm not entirely clear by what you mean by "objective predicate," but... In (A), of course "aadhe bhare (hue)" syntactically modifies the noun directly. In (B), "aadhaa bharaa (huaa)" is a participial adjunct controlled by the direct object (similar to how "standing outside" could be a participial adjunct controlled by the direct object in the English sentence "I saw him standing outside").

    Some time ago, there was a discussion of these participial adjuncts being in the direct vs oblique case here: Hindi: चौकीदार रामदुलारे ने शवों को पेड़ से लटका देखा था।.
     
    Last edited:

    MonsieurGonzalito

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Argentina
    I'm not entirely clear by what you mean by "objective predicate,
    predicative
    predicative
    I am using Spanish syntactic analysis terminology, "predicatives" being the a part of the predicate that complements either the verb and the subject (subjective predicative) or the verb and the object (objective predicative).


    I'm not entirely clear by what you mean by "objective predicate," but... In (A), of course "aadhe bhare (hue)" syntactically modifies the noun directly. In (B), "aadhaa bharaa (huaa)" is a participial adjunct controlled by the direct object (similar to how "standing outside" could be a participial adjunct controlled by the direct object in the English sentence "I saw him standing outside").
    :thumbsup:
    This how it works in Spanish, therefore, perfect :D


    Just out of curiosity: the 3rd possibility is not acceptable, i.e., keeping the participle in oblique, but outside the direct object?
    Perhaps if I wanted to express the "fulness" in a "more adverbial than predicative" way?
    Seeing the glass "in a half-filled way"?

    ham gilaas ko aadhe bhare (hue) dekhte haiN
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    Just out of curiosity: the 3rd possibility is not acceptable, i.e., keeping the participle in oblique, but outside the direct object?
    Perhaps if I wanted to express the "fulness" in a "more adverbial than predicative" way?
    Seeing the glass "in a half-filled way"?

    ham gilaas ko aadhe bhare (hue) dekhte haiN
    I suppose it's possible in some technical sense. If you look above at @littlepond jii's comments in #2 regarding your snake sentences, and some of the sentences (like maiNne use baiThe hue dekhaa = I saw him sitting) that showed up in the other thread I linked to in #3, you'll see that oblique participial adjuncts are certainly permissible [but that they create an ambiguity, since now either the subject or the object of the matrix verb can control into the adjunct]. But, in the specific sentence you ask about, the oblique sounds less natural than the direct "aadhaa bharaa (huaa)" to me.
     
    Top