Hindi/Urdu and Punjabi: strawberry

panjabigator

Senior Member
Am. English
I typed in "strawberry" in shabdkosh.com and it yielded the word हिसालू as a response. I've never heard this word before: is this a common word? I've only heard "स्ट्रॉबेरी" and I assumed that they were not indigenous to South Asian soil.

Regards,
Panjabigator
 
  • hindiurdu

    Senior Member
    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    Hisaalu/hasaalu is a Pahari word for a kind of raspberry actually (actual raspberry, not the cape gooseberry = rasbhari). I have never seen this outside the subcontinent, so am surprised to see this as a translation for strawberry! You only get it in the rural areas I think. Strawberries do grow (I think natively) throughout the Himalayas. They are wild and small and much more tart than the stuff you get in North America and Europe. Everyone calls it straaberi afaik, though there is a typical Kashmiri word for it. It's at the tip of my tongue but I am having trouble remembering it. No one uses it except really old people.

    More stuff (added later) -

    Hisaalu is Rubus ellipticus - there are even pictures there. It's listed as a dangerously invasive plant - well, what do you know!

    Interesting. There are four species of strawberries native to the subcontinent: Fragaria nubicola, F. daltoniana, F. nilgerrensis and F. indica. Wikipedia says F.n. is useless commercially but then I read elsewhere that the fruit is actually delicious. Not being an expert on strawberries, I don't know what to make of it. I think the one I have seen growing wild is probably Fragaria daltoniana, which has the "poor flavored fruit".
     
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    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    panjabigator said:
    Thank you, Alfaaz. I recognize توت فرنگی from Persian. Do people use this in Urdu?
    Just saw this; As Faylasoof SaaHib has said above it would be rarely used...probably when someone is trying to give an exotic, different, unique feel to something that might be otherwise ordinary: "aaj hum aapko lazeez tuut-farangi chocolate chicken bannana sikhaaeNge!"
    panjabigator said:
    Aren't gooseberries "āmlā?"
    Yes...(not sure but aamlaa seems to be used, at least in English, for a specific kind/family of gooseberries)...
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    marrish said:
    I believe the English borrowing should be spelled اسٹرابری.
    The ی in berry would probably depend on one's English pronunciation of the word, but I would disagree with the alif even though it seems to be convention. It yields wrong pronunciation (as has been discussed previously in another thread) such as: iskuul, asmaarT, asTeshn, etc. and doesn't accurately represent the English word.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    The ی in berry would probably depend on one's English pronunciation of the word, but I would disagree with the alif even though it seems to be convention. It yields wrong pronunciation (as has been discussed previously in another thread) such as: iskuul, asmaarT, asTeshn, etc. and doesn't accurately represent the English word.
    I would rather tend to say that ی in berry would depend on the Urdu pronunciation of the word. I understand your about the alif and if I were to be asked, it is not necessary to be noted, however, as you rightly point out, this has been the convention.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The ی in berry would probably depend on one's English pronunciation of the word, but I would disagree with the alif even though it seems to be convention. It yields wrong pronunciation (as has been discussed previously in another thread) such as: iskuul, asmaarT, asTeshn, etc. and doesn't accurately represent the English word.

    Does anyone pronounce this word in this manner? Because we are stooped in English speaking environments, these words such as "iskuul" seem quite odd to us. But if you think from a purely "desi" perspective, that's how people uttered them. Just think how "boy" is taught in the Subcontinent. As a matter of interest, read some of Akbar Ilahabadi's humorous poetry which is full of English words and see how they were pronounced by the natives.
     
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    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    QURESHPOR said:
    Does anyone pronounce this word in this manner? Because we are stooped in English speaking environments, these words such as "iskuul" seem quite odd to us. But if you think from a purely "desi" perspective, that's how people uttered them. Just think how "boy" is taught in the Subcontinent. As a matter of interest, read some of Akbar Ilahabadi's humerous poetry which is full of English words and see how they were pronounced by the natives.
    This seems a bit contradictory QP SaaHib...; isn't it usually said that we should utter words correctly (even in this forum) therefore writing Haqeeqat (and not hakikat), zulm (not zulam), mulk (not mulak), Hukumat (not hakummat_t), phir and phuul (not fir and fuul), preet (not pareet), etc. etc. This is explained/justified by saying that it is to maintain a standard of language, and not about being "stooped in" Urdu (or Hindi) speaking environments. Considering this, shouldn't we (similarly) also try to pronounce and represent the correct pronunciation of English words (or any language for that matter)...?
    Note that there is no denying that people of the subcontinent do pronounce words differently.Thanks for the poetry recommendations.
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Just saw this; As Faylasoof SaaHib has said above it would be rarely used...probably when someone is trying to give an exotic, different, unique feel to something that might be otherwise ordinary: "aaj hum aapko lazeez tuut-farangi chocolate chicken bannana sikhaaeNge!"
    Yes...(not sure but aamlaa seems to be used, at least in English, for a specific kind/family of gooseberries)...
    Can something like this be easily conceived as ordinary?:eek: Chicken with chocolate and strawberries, plus bananas as per taste?
     

    Alfaaz

    Senior Member
    English
    marrish said:
    Can something like this be easily conceived as ordinary?:eek:
    :) No, it probably cannot be easily conceived as ordinary, but certainly exotic, unique, wild and if you taste it......delicious (depending on one's preferences of course)! I guess a simple "strawberry milkshake" would have been a better example!
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    :) No, it probably cannot be easily conceived as ordinary, but certainly exotic, unique, wild and if you taste it......delicious (depending on one's preferences of course)! I guess a simple "strawberry milkshake" would have been a better example!
    Yes, you are right, de gustibus non disputandum.
     

    hindiurdu

    Senior Member
    Hindi-Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri
    Yes...(not sure but aamlaa seems to be used, at least in English, for a specific kind/family of gooseberries)...

    Yes, I believe this is the case:

    aamlaa = gooseberry (green-yellow color), specifically Phyllanthus emblica
    rasbharii = cape gooseberry (orange colored, husk covered), specifically Physalis peruviana
    hasaalu/hisaalu = Himalayan raspberry (yellow-orange colored), specifically Rubus ellipticus
    yangtash (Kashmiri) = strawberry, specifically Fragaria vesca (plus the 4 desi varieties I mentioned earlier)

    So, I Googled "yangtash" and look at this - it showed up in this book of Punjabi plants from 1869, which means this was probably a word shared by Punjabis and Kashmiris. I have never heard any Punjabi say this though - only older Kashmiris. The Sanskrit term is apparently tRNa-badara (तृण-बदर/ترن بدر). I also ran into a map of native strawberry distribution, and it essentially showed it in Turkey, then skipping over Iran and Afghanistan and then reappearing again in India and China. So, maybe it isn't surprising that there is no Persian name for it.

    BTW I am personally surprised by "toot firangi", mainly because toot seems so different from strawberry. Although if plum (P. aalu/ HU. aalu buxaaraa) and potato (P. aaluu zamiinii/ HU. aalu) can be linked then maybe this isn't such a stretch either.
     
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    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Does anyone pronounce this word in this manner? Because we are stooped in English speaking environments, these words such as "iskuul" seem quite odd to us. But if you think from a purely "desi" perspective, that's how people uttered them. Just think how "boy" is taught in the Subcontinent. As a matter of interest, read some of Akbar Ilahabadi's humorous poetry which is full of English words and see how they were pronounced by the natives.
    Qureshpor SaaHib, the word ''strawberry'' was originally written اسٹابری (a-)(i-)sTaabarii in Urdu and this is probably the way the word should function in Urdu. There has been of course a re-borrowing of English words taking place.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Thanks for this, HindiUrdu Sahib. I never thought that "raspberry" could be read as "ras bharī!"
    We in fact have a term for the humble raspberry, PG SaaHib:

    آنچو आंचू āṅćū [S. आच्छुक], s.m. The raspberry, Rubus paniculatus or tiliaceus; blackberry, bramble, Rubus fruticosus...

    ... and formally, tuut (also shahtuut شہتوت) is mulberry. Hence the derivation tuut-e-farangii for strawberry:

    توت tūt, A mulberry; the mulberry-tree;--tūti jangalī (sih-gul, kūhī), The black- berry;--tūti farangī, The strawberry.
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    The izaafat is redundant and in fact unnecessary for tuut-farangii and in fact confounds matters for if we were to use an izaafat tuut e farang would have been the way to go. The fruit is in fact referred to as tuut-farangii by perso-phones and Urdu dictionaries concur. Lastly since the Urdu term for mulberries was mentioned is it Shaah-tuut or shah-tuut, the most common pronunciation on both sides of the border is surprisingly sheh-tuut which must be a ghalat ul a'am? For the former the izaafat must be a matter of choice and not necessity since the term derived directly from Persian is tuut-farangii without an izaafat.
     
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    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    The word mentioned doesn't sound familiar.

    For Urdu: سٹرابیری strawberry (probably the most common), کہج kahj , توت فرنگی toot farangi;

    From a Persian dictionary: toot farangi, پج paj , ک‍ﮩ‍ج kahj , چگلك chagalak (from Turkish?), etc.
    Btw given that both tuut-farangii (excluding the izaafat) and tuut-e-farangi (with the izaafat) are used what is the plural form for both? My personal opinion is that the izaafat in such scenarios is a matter of choice than a given and it appears to be so with dictionary entries favouring the former. For instance, there could be a case for shahtuut being referred to as shaah e tuut, but then again the accepted form is the shortened shahtuut. Would tuut-farangii be a feminine or masculine noun? I would assume former in which case the plural would be tuut-farangiiyaaN or tuut-farangiiyaat. However, what would the plural be in izaafat form, tuut-haa e farangi?
     
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