Hindi-Urdu-Bengali: The changes of structure in a poem

Rani_Author

Senior Member
Indonesia - Indonesian
A few days ago, I wrote a simple poem in Bengali. Bangladeshis appreciated so much the poem. They could understand the changes of structure in a poem I made.

Example this simple sentence in Bengali: Ami prem a porcilam. We could change it become: Prem a porcilam, ami. Then, porcilam, prem a.

But, when I was trying to do modifications like that in Hindi and Urdu, Indians and Pakistanis said that I didn't understand anything about Hindi and Urdu. Actually, I just wanna make an improvisation like the majority of poems in the other languages. The majority of poets in the world said that we could write a poem freely without taking notice of any strict structures.

Hindi: Pyar ho gaya tha mujhe. Changing become: Mujhe pyar ho gaya tha. And: Gaya tha, pyar ho.
Urdu: Muhabbat ho gaya tha mujhay. Changing become: Mujhay muhabbat ho gaya tha. And: Gaya tha, muhabbat ho.

Thanks.
 
  • Rani, Selamat datang di forum kita! And congratulations for your attempts at composing poems in our languages. I hope you'll have a great time learning and perfecting them.

    Before addressing anything in your post, I'd, however, like to point out that your post contains no clear question. That makes it very difficult to compose any "reply". So, it will be really helpful for potential respondents if you can formulate some clear questions (e.g. Is "'gayaa thaa muhabbat ho' acceptable in Urdu poetry? If not, why?")

    Now, in absence of any specific question, I'll make some general comments on the topic. Bengali, Hindi, Urdu all allow a lot of flexibility of word order in poetry. However, that does not mean all orders would be allowed. I am sure our forum members will help you figure out which orders are possible and which not. Some more specific comments:
    1) Your Urdu version contains a grammatical mistake. Instead of gayaa, you need to use gayii, because muhabbat is feminine.
    2) I can't comment whether your Hindi/Urdu versions are acceptable; more qualified members will carify that, but I can tell you that "ho gayaa" and "gayaa ho" are both possible but with completely different meanings, i.e. "happened" vs "as if (he) went". Maybe that has a role to play here.
    3) Your Bengali version ("I was falling in love") has a different tense, assuming you are using standard Bengali, than your Hindi-Urdu versions ("I fell in love"). However, in some non-standard dialects of Bengali, it can mean "I fell in love", which translates to "ami preme poRechhilam" in standard Bengali. Note the extra "e".

    In Standard Bengali (as well as Kolkata dialect):
    poRchhilam = I was falling
    poRechhilam = I fell

    In some other dialects, including some of the major ones from Bangladesh, e.g. Dhaka:
    portachhilam, etc. = I was falling
    porchhilam = I fell
    In these dialects, the "chh" is usually pronounced as an "s", though.
     
    Last edited:
    Hello Rani. Welcome to the forum. I think I know what you are asking. You are basically asking if Hindi/Urdu follow a strict SOV (subject-object-verb) order, or does it allow some leeway in altering this order. In that case let me assure you that it is definitely permissible to change the SOV order in multiple ways. Taking your sample example..

    Mujhe pyar ho gaya tha
    Mujhe ho gaya tha pyar
    Pyar ho gaya tha mujhe
    Pyar mujhe ho gaya tha
    Ho gaya tha mujhe pyar (Actual line from a popular Hindi song!)
    Ho gaya tha pyar mujhe

    Each of these sentences is valid, and conveys broadly the same meaning. (Though subtle nuances in meaning may be claimed because of emphasis on different words in each sentence).

    I guess your difficulty is arising because you are trying to break up "ho gaya tha" into different order. That would be problematic because "ho gaya tha" is a single unit (the verb), and breaking up this unit will produce gibberish.
     
    Rani, Selamat datang di forum kita! And congratulations for your attempts at composing poems in our languages. I hope you'll have a great time learning and perfecting them.

    Before addressing anything in your post, I'd, however, like to point out that your post contains no clear question. That makes it very difficult to compose any "reply". So, it will be really helpful for potential respondents if you can formulate some clear questions (e.g. Is "'gayaa thaa muhabbat ho' acceptable in Urdu poetry? If not, why?")

    Now, in absence of any specific question, I'll make some general comments on the topic. Bengali, Hindi, Urdu all allow a lot of flexibility of word order in poetry. However, that does not mean all orders would be allowed. I am sure our forum members will help you figure out which orders are possible and which not. Some more specific comments:
    1) Your Urdu version contains a grammatical mistake. Instead of gayaa, you need to use gayii, because muhabbat is feminine.
    2) I can't comment whether your Hindi/Urdu versions are acceptable; more qualified members will carify that, but I can tell you that "ho gayaa" and "gayaa ho" are both possible but with completely different meanings, i.e. "happened" vs "as if (he) went". Maybe that has a role to play here.
    3) Your Bengali version ("I was falling in love") has a different tense, assuming you are using standard Bengali, than your Hindi-Urdu versions ("I fell in love"). However, in some non-standard dialects of Bengali, it can mean "I fell in love", which translates to "ami preme poRechhilam" in standard Bengali. Note the extra "e".

    In Standard Bengali (as well as Kolkata dialect):
    poRchhilam = I was falling
    poRechhilam = I fell

    In some other dialects, including some of the major ones from Bangladesh, e.g. Dhaka:
    portachhilam, etc. = I was falling
    porchhilam = I fell
    In these dialects, the "chh" is usually pronounced as an "s", though.


    << Before addressing anything in your post, I'd, however, like to point out that your post contains no clear question. That makes it very difficult to compose any "reply". So, it will be really helpful for potential respondents if you can formulate some clear questions (e.g. Is "'gayaa thaa muhabbat ho' acceptable in Urdu poetry? If not, why?") >>
    >
    Yeah, that's what I meant. Thanks for reminding me about that.


    << Now, in absence of any specific question, I'll make some general comments on the topic. Bengali, Hindi, Urdu all allow a lot of flexibility of word order in poetry. However, that does not mean all orders would be allowed. I am sure our forum members will help you figure out which orders are possible and which not. Some more specific comments:
    1) Your Urdu version contains a grammatical mistake. Instead of gayaa, you need to use gayii, because muhabbat is feminine.>>
    >
    Actually, I don't understand too much about the differences of use of masculine and feminine ones whether it should be take notice of the differences of nouns, the differences of the speakers, or the differences of other persons we talk about.

    Just like this. In Portuguese, we know about "Obrigado" (thank you) is spoken by male speakers and "obrigada" is spoken by female speakers.

    Then, In Italian, we know about "Sei occupato?" (are you busy?) is used to any man and "sei occupata" is used to any woman.

    And based on your explanation, it appeared another difference. :eek:


    << 2) I can't comment whether your Hindi/Urdu versions are acceptable; more qualified members will carify that, but I can tell you that "ho gayaa" and "gayaa ho" are both possible but with completely different meanings, i.e. "happened" vs "as if (he) went". Maybe that has a role to play here.>>
    >
    Thanks for letting me know about that.


    << 3) Your Bengali version ("I was falling in love") has a different tense, assuming you are using standard Bengali, than your Hindi-Urdu versions ("I fell in love"). However, in some non-standard dialects of Bengali, it can mean "I fell in love", which translates to "ami preme poRechhilam" in standard Bengali. Note the extra "e".

    In Standard Bengali (as well as Kolkata dialect):
    poRchhilam = I was falling
    poRechhilam = I fell

    In some other dialects, including some of the major ones from Bangladesh, e.g. Dhaka:
    portachhilam, etc. = I was falling
    porchhilam = I fell
    In these dialects, the "chh" is usually pronounced as an "s", though.>>
    >
    Actually, my bengali teacher is a Kushtian. He taught me like that. He teachs Bengali in Kushtia for any foreigners and English for any bangladeshis. Don't you think that he is incapable to teach me bengali?

    Actually, every time I learn a language, I would follow the standart dialect of a country or a region I'm interested in the most, e.g. British dialect for English, European Portuguese one for Portuguese, European Spanish one for Spanish.

    Is the dialect of Kolkata used by bangladeshis mostly?

    Then, what is the first mother tongue in Kolkata? Bengali or Hindi? Based on my opinion, it's impossible any person in the world has two mother tongues or more. It should be any language s/he knows the most.:)
     
    Hello Rani. Welcome to the forum. I think I know what you are asking. You are basically asking if Hindi/Urdu follow a strict SOV (subject-object-verb) order, or does it allow some leeway in altering this order. In that case let me assure you that it is definitely permissible to change the SOV order in multiple ways. Taking your sample example..

    Mujhe pyar ho gaya tha
    Mujhe ho gaya tha pyar
    Pyar ho gaya tha mujhe
    Pyar mujhe ho gaya tha
    Ho gaya tha mujhe pyar (Actual line from a popular Hindi song!)
    Ho gaya tha pyar mujhe

    Each of these sentences is valid, and conveys broadly the same meaning. (Though subtle nuances in meaning may be claimed because of emphasis on different words in each sentence).

    I guess your difficulty is arising because you are trying to break up "ho gaya tha" into different order. That would be problematic because "ho gaya tha" is a single unit (the verb), and breaking up this unit will produce gibberish.


    <<I think I know what you are asking. You are basically asking if Hindi/Urdu follow a strict SOV (subject-object-verb) order, or does it allow some leeway in altering this order.>>
    >
    Yeah, that's what I meant.:)


    <<I guess your difficulty is arising because you are trying to break up "ho gaya tha" into different order. That would be problematic because "ho gaya tha" is a single unit (the verb), and breaking up this unit will produce gibberish.>>
    >
    In one of hindi books here was written by an indian writer, I even found the form of "Mujhe pyar ho gaya". Is it Ok? If no, don't you think that he is incapable to explain about Hindi? Because, that matter made me think that almost of all of the rules of changes are permissible.:rolleyes:

    Thanks for letting me know.
     
    Just like this. In Portuguese, we know about "Obrigado" (thank you) is spoken by male speakers and "obrigada" is spoken by female speakers.

    Then, In Italian, we know about "Sei occupato?" (are you busy?) is used to any man and "sei occupata" is used to any woman.

    And based on your explanation, it appeared another difference. :eek:

    At the risk of digressing from the topic by getting into the grammar of Italian or Portuguese, I'll point out the following:
    If you remember that those phrases are ellipsis of "eu estou obrigado/a" and "tu sei occupato/a" and "muhabbat ho gayii hai", they all follow exactly the same grammatical pattern, i.e. the participial complement (obrigada, occupata, ho gayii) of be-verb (estou, sei, hai) agreeing with the subject (eu, tu, muhabbat).


    Actually, my bengali teacher is a Kushtian. He taught me like that. He teachs Bengali in Kushtia for any foreigners and English for any bangladeshis. Don't you think that he is incapable to teach me bengali?

    Well, there are two points:

    1) Since Bengali natively uses a non-Roman writing system, we Romanize it in different ways according to our own preferences. There is no official standard for that. So, what you posted as "Ami prem a porcilam", I'd usually transcribe as "ami preme poRchhilam" (Actual Bengali script: আমি প্রেমে পড়ছিলাম), but that's just my preference. You or your teacher are free to follow your own style. No problem.

    2) This sentence (Ami prem a porcilam/ami preme poRchhilam/আমি প্রেমে পড়ছিলাম) is perfectly correct, and means "I was falling in love" in standard Bengali. If that is what you wanted to say, it is perfectly fine. However, it is not equivalent to your Hindi/Urdu sentences, which mean "I fell in love", which in standard Bengali translates to "ami preme poRechhilam" (আমি প্রেমে পড়েছিলাম), which has an extra "e", irrespective of how you choose to Romanize it. You can check with any educated Bengali speaker. I am sure, your Bengali teacher will also agree.

    Is the dialect of Kolkata used by bangladeshis mostly?

    Standard Bengali in both Bangladesh and India is essentially the same. It so happens that the everyday street language of Kolkata, among the big urban centres, comes the closest to it in grammar and pronunciation, though originally the standard was based on dialects spoken about a 100Km further North. All Bengalis learn it as the standard Bengali. Though modern colloquial Bengali of Kolkata is very similar to it, there are arguably some small differences, e.g. formal Bengali would use "giyechhilam" (I went), while colloquial Kolkata Bengali is "geslam" or "gechhlam". Similarly the distinction of "r" (র) and "R" (ড়) is vanishing in Kolkata like more Eastern dialects, but it is still preserved in standard Bengali and more Western dialects.


    Then, what is the first mother tongue in Kolkata? Bengali or Hindi?

    Overwhelmingly, Bengali. There are minorities speaking many other Indian languages, Hindi and Urdu being prominent among them, but they are concentrated only to a few specific parts of the city. Kolkata and Dhaka are roughly equally strong centres of Bengali culture and language, with a good amount of cultural exchange between the two in many forms. In any case, about 30-40% of all Bengali speakers (i.e. 90 million of total ~260 million) world-wide live in (Eastern) India. On the other hand, Hindi is the native and/or cultural language of about 30-40% of Indians (about 400-500 million in 1.2 billion), who are concentrated in the Central and North-Western parts of India. Kolkata lies outside this region. In fact, among the 5 largest cities of India, only Delhi is officially Hindi-speaking.
     
    Last edited:
    Hindi: Pyar ho gaya tha mujhe. Changing become: Mujhe pyar ho gaya tha. And: Gaya tha, pyar ho.
    Urdu: Muhabbat ho gaya tha mujhay. Changing become: Mujhay muhabbat ho gaya tha. And: Gaya tha, muhabbat ho.

    Hello! As tarkshya jii pointed out earlier, the problem here is that "ho gayaa thaa" is a single unit: if you break it up, it makes no sense. It's like breaking up a word itself!

    What you can say is "Ho gayaa thaa, pyaar" and "Ho gayii thii, mohabbat".
     
    Based on my opinion, it's impossible any person in the world has two mother tongues or more. It should be any language s/he knows the most.:)

    Discussing it further would be off-topic, but there are many people in the world, especially in India, who have two or more than two mother tongues. Many of us grow up polylingually, and it's hard to determine which language we know more of.
     
    Back
    Top