Hindi-Urdu: Husband and Wife, Aap/tum

S

savera

Member
Urdu, Punjabi - Pakistan
Interesting sociological question to consider, especially as it relates to gender norms and ideas regarding marriage/partnership: How do husbands address wives and how do wives address husbands in Hindi/Urdu across India and Pakistan? I have often heard husbands say tum to their wives and wives say aap to their husbands. I have heard this from both Indians and Pakistanis, Hindus and Muslims.

But how common is this aap-to-husband vs. tum-to-wife reality?

Is it universal or am I just exposed to a small sample size? It's not something I've paid attention to until very recently.

Are 'more equal' addresses used by married couples as well (both husband and wife say tum to each other or both use aap with each other)?

Is the aap+ho form used (i.e. the word aap is used, but all the verbs are conjugated as they would be if tum was used)?

Is this difference in formality mostly done in public (whereas in private, the couple uses the same word for each other)?

Is there a difference with the new generation (with perhaps 'more equal' terms being used, i.e. both address each other as tum/aap) or with those exposed to English or Western norms/education or those who go through a 'love marriage' vs an 'arranged marriage' (with love marriages arguably being on the rise)?

This is obviously a complex topic, but language often reflects embedded notions of power/respect/propriety and, from a Western perspective, having the husband being addressed differently than the wife being addressed may seem a bit different or even odd (obviously modern English just has 'you', so there is no way to differentiate status/power between a husband and wife). I didn't notice this difference until recently. Any thoughts?
 
    • savera said:
    This is obviously a complex topic, but language often reflects embedded notions of power/respect/propriety and, from a Western perspective, having the husband being addressed differently than the wife being addressed may seem a bit different or even odd (obviously modern English just has 'you', so there is no way to differentiate status/power between a husband and wife). I didn't notice this difference until recently. Any thoughts?
    Click to expand...

    I don't think it is strange in Western Society to have a different status between male and female. This has only started changing since the 1960s. Most adults therefore will have been familiar with a time when there was not superficial "equality" in the marriage bonds which . It is also since that time that people have begun attacking the generic non-gender singular pronoun usage of he and suggesting that people use he/she or them.

    That being the case, I also argue against the fact that the inferiority of women is encoded within the Hindi/Urdu language. The HAM-HAIN form as used by women across North India (and is famous in some cities such as Lucknow(), while seeming like nawaabi andaaz to a Dehli speaker to me is a striking example of gender-elimination and woman's self empowerment. We can also look at the usage of feminine words in Hindi/Urdu and look at feminine words such as sena which would never be associated with the feminine in English as an example that further suggests that seeing Hindi/Urdu language in a sexist way is a product of Western Orientalism.
     
    What form do Urdu and Hindi speakers use when talking to themselves? "tuu" or "tum" or both? If both, then which one more?
     
    Stranger_ said:
    What form do Urdu and Hindi speakers use when talking to themselves? "tuu" or "tum" or both? If both, then which one more?
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    tuu, tum, aap; all equate to 'you'.

    تو tuu is used by mothers to children, by one lover to another, by very close friends and in addressing God (the idea being that there is no formality between God and his creation).

    تم tum is the plural of تو tuu. It is one level more formal than tuu. It is used by family members to one another, by elder family members to younger ones, and in speaking to social inferiors.

    آپ aap is the formal 'you'. This is used to show respect to social superiors, family elders, strangers and social acquaintances.
     
    iskandar e azam

    Thank you for your answer but my question was not this.

    I asked how you talk to yourself in Urdu. I mean which pronoun do you use when you are thinking and talking to yourself, like when you are alone in front of the mirror.
     
    Dear Stranger,

    One would use the word میں maiN (I) when talking to oneself. (PS: not to be confused with میں Men which means 'in' amongst other things.)

    It should also be noted that in Urdu the nominative agent is often dispensed with so one may not even use the word میں maiN when talking to oneself.

    Alex
     
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    Yeah but don't you sometimes talk to yourself in a commanding manner, like when you schedule your daily tasks for example and say: "first go to the bank and cash the cheque, then to the petrol station and then to your parents' house".
     
    Stranger_ said:
    Yeah but don't you sometimes talk to yourself in a commanding manner, like when you schedule your daily tasks for example and say: "first go to the bank and cash the cheque, then to the petrol station and then to your parents' house".
    Click to expand...

    It is perfectly possible to miss out the nominative میں maiN even when using imperative verbs. (Doing so, when addressing an equal would be considered very rude.)
     
    I don't know where did person talking to mirror jump in, but responding to OP, different families and regions have different choices. Of course, "tum" or "tuu" are more common in the younger generations, but some older generation couples also always used "tum" or "tuu" and not "aap". Rajasthan, Lucknow belt, etc., are regions though where the more formal versions (or even addressing husband as third person) are more common. In "aap" cases, usually it's both ways; in third person cases, it's the husband who gets the tavajjo, not the wife - again, usually. I have seen cases where it applies both ways, too.
     
    As Jaun Elia said,
    آپ وه جی مگر یہ سب کیا ہے
    تم مرا نام کیوں نہیں لیتیں


    I have seen wives using 'aap' while husband using the first names to refer to their wives amongst older generations. Third person is also common. The younger generation are generally on first name terms.

    'Tu' is something we never use, as a rule to address people unless we mean utter contempt.
     
    ^ Interesting; "tuu" is also the form to address "God", so it is the most intimate form of address, and hence of course used by many Hindi speakers in India to address their close ones (esp. friends, parents and siblings, but sometimes parents, too). Of course, "tuu" is also used to indicate contempt, but that is an unfortunate extension of usage (since, at its basis, "tuu" indicates a high level of familiarity, non-strangeness).
    By the way, if I am talking to myself, to go back to something touched upon in this thread earlier, I would again use "tuu" (most Hindi speakers in my knowledge would).

    Interesting also your observation about "aap". I have never seen a one-sided "aap" between husband and wife.
     
    Yes, 'tuu' is used for God, but we rarely used it for addressing people. We were told not to do 'तू-तड़ाक' !
     
    ^ Of course, to strangers, using "tuu" would be quite a bit of तू-तड़ाक! But to family members, especially to one's spouse or beloved, it's very, very endearing, immediately establishing a lot of intimacy just by usage of a form of address.
     
    I asked my unmarried women colleagues about it and they said they would address their husbands "aap" but would't necessarily expect the husbands to use "aap" in response and would be fine with "tum" as they are likely to be younger than their husbands.:)
     
    ^ Interesting; clearly, our friend circles are quite different. (Also interesting the age dimension; so they address their parents as "aap"? In my circle, everyone uses "tum" for their parents, with some of them also using "tuu".)
     
    If I used tum with my parents, I think would get slapped, and I don't come from a family that particularly cares about the quality of their Hindi. For what it's worth, all the Hindi sitcoms (which to be fair is not that many) I watch that are set in some sort of an urban context show parents tu-ing or tum-ing their children, and the (adult) children aap-ing their parents.
     
    ^ I don't think that has to do anything with the "quality" of Hindi: it has to do more with the kind of values that a household thinks as "good". In many homes, "tum" is privileged (or "tuu"), as "aap" is regarded as starchy, formal (of course, to strangers, "aap" is currency). In other homes, "tum" is heresy if said to an older person, etc. So it's not about quality of Hindi: it's more a sociological question.

    As for sitcoms, I don't watch any, but I would not be surprised if most of them show aap towards parents and tum towards children: Hindi sitcoms, especially the saas-bahu style ones, can be very, very conservative. Talking of one Hindi sitcom that I watched some years ago, which shows a Sikh family though (if that matters), the heroine says "tuu" to even her grandmother (so everyone is on "tuu" terms); interestingly, the divinity is "aap" in it. (You will find it at around 12:30 here, when the girl says "chal naa, bebe, tuu bhii chal" - bebe referring to her grandmother).
     
    This is what happens when royalty gets involved. The royal people always speak to each other in hyper-elevated terms and then this trickles down to the common man and changes the language. This is a way in which Urdu actually differs from Hindi. It has nothing to do with quality. It has to do with history and government.

    I would like to also point out that this SAME thing happened in English. "Thou", the equivalent of Hindi tuu, was dropped in favour of the plural form "you". Soon "thou" was eradicated from English everyday speech, but remained in antiquated English literature like the Bible (where "thou" is used for God as an intimate form) and in Shakespeare (where "thou" is used between lovers as an intimate form). So now the average English speaker who has no knowledge of history thinks "thou" is an elevated form, higher than "you" even.

    The problem lies in a simple reality. There are various unrelated occasions when we don't speak with pretences: 1) When we are very close to the listener; Therefore, there is no need for them 2) When we are angry or insulting someone. 3) When we live in areas where pretences and ego are not valued. (rural areas, inner city) 4) intimate moments in which use of pretence would seem awkward. 5) when speaking to people of a lower social status in societies with rigid class distinctions that elevate some groups over others (both the case in England and India)

    One of the comments about age above is telling. In older times, men would often be much older than the women they married. This would require an elevated form of address.
     
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    ^ Why would age require elevated form of address? Notice the link I posted: the girl uses "tuu" to her grandmother. In most families I know (including mine), we use "tum" for parents and grandparents. The case may be different in other families, but to say that age requires "aap" is wrong. Yes, in the case of strangers, accosting an elder stranger may require "aap", whereas a stranger of the same or younger age might fall under "tum" or "tuu" (esp. in the case of college/university students).

    Also, it is in rural areas actually where you will find more "aap" one-way phenomenon: it is there that ego and honour can be very valued, so you are wrong about your assumption. It is in urban areas, especially big cities, that "tum" and "tuu" can have more currency, for it is there that hierarchies don't have much meanings any more. However, there are indeed certain regions and societies that have always valorised "tum" (or "tuu") over "aap", even in older times (for example, my own ancestors); and, of course, there are many, especially in Lakhnavi circles, where "aap" is considered respectful and other forms of address not.
     
    In my experience and with most families I know, elders are addressed with "aap". To use "tum" or "tuu" would be considered rude and disrespectful. "aap" is also used in many other cases as a sign of respect. I have no connection to rural areas or Lakhnavi circles either. So, I disagree with Littlepond jii's assessment.

    I also disagree with Tonspeed jii's claim that the use of "aap" is due to royalty. It has to do with Indian culture and the importance of giving respect to others, particularly elders, in many families by using a polite term. It's a product of society and the evolution of language.
     
    ^ How do you denote "one" Indian culture? Well, I can't.

    I didn't make any assessment: I simply said that in the circles of my friends, family and acquaintances, it is "tum" (or "tuu") that is predominant, not "aap". So clearly there is not "one" Indian culture, given that you have a different experience. I always said that in many families and regions, "aap" one-sidedness is prevalent.

    By the way, I do agree to a certain extent with tonyspeed jii, as some of the "aap"-ies also do "ham" for "maiN". They treat themselves royally (not that they are descended necessarily from kings or emperors).
     
    littlepond said:
    ^ How do you denote "one" Indian culture? Well, I can't.

    I didn't make any assessment: I simply said that in the circles of my friends, family and acquaintances, it is "tum" (or "tuu") that is predominant, not "aap". So clearly there is not "one" Indian culture, given that you have a different experience. I always said that in many families and regions, "aap" one-sidedness is prevalent.
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    There are some things that are nearly universal in Indian culture. Hence, the phrase "Indian culture" exists. Anyway, my main point wasn't about one Indian culture or many. It was about why the usage of "aap" is prevalent and important to many people. The polite use of "aap" is not restricted to Hindi/Urdu either. Cognates of this word are used as polite forms of address in many Indian languages. You mentioned your circle only uses "tum" or "tuu". There are other circles that only use "aap", and of course others that use all three words depending on the situation. So, usage varies.
     
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    ^ I never disputed the usage of "aap" as important to many people, mundiya jii; but similarly the usage of "aap" is starchy and even pretentious, rather than respectful, to many others. As I said and as you said, "usage varies".

    I have already posted a link of a TV series where the main character, portraying a very ideal girl, is using "tuu" to her grandmother, and with no lack of respect involved. I can post tons of films and TV content where the same is happening.

    If your point was that there are some things that are nearly universal in Indian culture, then a one-sided "aap" is not one of those for me. It is quite prevalent, but it is far from being universal.
    Just to clarify, "aap" exists of course in my circle too, but it is used for strangers, or for people like my parents' friends, etc., whom I am not on intimate terms with. Intimacy automatically, and inevitably, leads to "tum" or "tuu" in the circles I am used to. (I cannot even imagine calling someone whom I love as "aap", because "aap" for me puts immediately a distance between me and the other person.)
     
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