Hindi, Urdu: "mine" (possessive pronouns)

[Pokeflute]

In English we can use "mine" (/yours/his/hers/etc.) as a pronoun. For example:

- Your house is bigger than mine (i.e. my house)
- Put more food on mine, please (i.e. my plate)
- I transferred money from your account to mine (i.e. my account)
- We each had a dog, and mine ran faster than his (i.e. my/his dog)

If I said "tumhaara ghar mere se baRa hai", it'd mean "your house is bigger than me". (i.e. "mere se" would be interpreted as "mujhse")

So then, how would I translate these into Hindi/Urdu? (My guess is perhaps "tumhaara ghar mere waale se baRaa hai"?)

 

[Qureshpor]

Your house is bigger than me

tumhaaraa ghar mujh se baRaa hai

Your house is bigger than my house

tumhaaraa ghar mere ghar se baRaa hai

Your house is bigger than mine

tumhaaraa ghar mere se baRaa hai

 

[Pokeflute]

Oh interesting. Would the following be correct then?

maamlaa khatam karne ke liye, ham donoN ne apne dostoN ko maidaan par bulaa liyaa. res shuruu huii aur ant meN mere dost uske khilaaf jiit gaye.

To settle the matter, we each called our friends onto the field. The race began and, in the end, my friends beat his.

 

[littlepond]

Oh interesting. Would the following be correct then?

No; in Hindi, we don't use such a construction so much as in English.

maamlaa khatam karne ke liye, ham donoN ne apne dostoN ko maidaan par bulaa liyaa. res shuruu huii aur ant meN mere dost uske khilaaf jiit gaye.

To settle the matter, we each called our friends onto the field. The race began and, in the end, my friends beat his.

kissaa/m(u)aamlaa nibTaane/nipTaane ke liye, ham meN se har ek ne apne-apne dostoN ko maidaan (par) bulaa liyaa. dauR/res shuruu huii, aur ant meN mere dostoN ne uske dostoN ko (or just unhe) haraa diyaa.

 

[Pokeflute]

I see - many corrections then 🥲

Thank you both, this is interesting. So it is possible to say "mere se" (meaning, forex, "mere ghar se"), but the construction is not used as much.

 

[littlepond]

So it is possible to say "mere se" (meaning, forex, "mere ghar se"), but the construction is not used as much.

In that type of sentence, you could also have said "uske se," "unke se," etc. (standing for his/her house, their house, etc.)

 

[Qureshpor]

In that type of sentence, you could also have said "uske se," "unke se," etc. (standing for his/her house, their house, etc.)

This is the grammatical correct construction (with mujh) and I would personally recommend that you use it. You ought to say, “ mujh se puuchho” rather than “mere se puuchho” but it’s your choice.

 

[Qureshpor]

Oh interesting. Would the following be correct then?

maamlaa khatam karne ke liye, ham donoN ne apne dostoN ko maidaan par bulaa liyaa. res shuruu huii aur ant meN mere dost uske khilaaf jiit gaye.

To settle the matter, we each called our friends onto the field. The race began and, in the end, my friends beat his.

Sorry I am using my phone and I am not very good at selecting the appropriate sections for reply.

“mere dost us ke xilaaf jiit ga’e” would mean “my friends won against him/her”! We would have to say… “us ke dosoN ke xilaaf”. I would also have used “maidaan meN” as well as “shuruu3”, “aaxir”.

Finally, I would like to add that when a response is given by more than one person to a query, it doesn’t necessarily mean only one answer is correct. The correct answer can be expressed in different ways in the manner a cat be skinned in more than one way! Having said this, I have no experience whatsoever in skinning cats🥹

 

[Qureshpor]

In that type of sentence, you could also have said "uske se," "unke se," etc. (standing for his/her house, their house, etc.)

I’ve been thinking about this. Theoretically “un ke ko” may be correct but it does sound rather weird. Let’s see if anyone else makes a comment on this.

 

[littlepond]

This is the grammatical correct construction (with mujh) and I would personally recommend that you use it. You ought to say, “ mujh se puuchho” rather than “mere se puuchho” but it’s your choice.

@Qureshpor jii, I did not understand to what this was referring to. I agree wholeheartedly with you that "mujh se puuchho" is the grammatically correct sentence, and I don't think I said anything else anywhere on this thread.

 

[Qureshpor]

@Qureshpor jii, I did not understand to what this was referring to. I agree wholeheartedly with you that "mujh se puuchho" is the grammatically correct sentence, and I don't think I said anything else anywhere on this thread.

No you didn’t say anything else anywhere. My response was meant for @Pokeflute’s #5. I have inadvertently quoted your response. Apologies.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

In English we can use "mine" (/yours/his/hers/etc.) as a pronoun. For example:

- Your house is bigger than mine (i.e. my house)
- Put more food on mine, please (i.e. my plate)
- I transferred money from your account to mine (i.e. my account)
- We each had a dog, and mine ran faster than his (i.e. my/his dog)

If I said "tumhaara ghar mere se baRa hai", it'd mean "your house is bigger than me". (i.e. "mere se" would be interpreted as "mujhse")

So then, how would I translate these into Hindi/Urdu? (My guess is perhaps "tumhaara ghar mere waale se baRaa hai"?)

I believe that in your question you are conflating two doubts that are not (IMO) necessarily related.

One, if there are "apocopated versus non-apocopated" versions for the possessives in HU. I am pretty sure that the answer for that is no. The formative of the pronouns does not fulfill that function.

Two, if the (supposedly non apocopated version) would be used to qualify things in a way the -vaalaa suffix does (i.e., "having that characteristic" such as "being mine" to the exclusion of others not having that characteristic). Since the answer to the first question is no, this second question is moot.

That said, I see no reason why "meraa vaalaa" or "mere vaale se" would not be used, in case you wanted to specify possession for something to the exclusion of other things. In other words, I see nothing wrong with "tumhaara ghar mere waale se baRaa hai". But on that I submit to the respected contributors above.

 

[littlepond]

In other words, I see nothing wrong with "tumhaara ghar mere waale se baRaa hai".

I don't think anyone said it's wrong. It's used, but as it brings in a bit of redundancy and hence is inelegant, the more simple version, "tumhaaraa ghar mere se baRaa hai," is more common in usage.

 

[Qureshpor]

That said, I see no reason why "meraa vaalaa" or "mere vaale se" would not be used, in case you wanted to specify possession for something to the exclusion of other things. In other words, I see nothing wrong with "tumhaara ghar mere waale se baRaa hai". But on that I submit to the respected contributors above.

The “vaalaa” version is quite common in speech but from an Urdu perspective, it is to be shunned. I feel it doesn’t really add anything and is redundant.

 

[aevynn]

I have three small additions

First:

we don't use such a construction so much as in English.

I agree very much with this and feel that this comment is probably one of the most important things to be taken away from this discussion. To my ears, at least, even simple sentences like tumhaaraa ghar mere ghar se baRaa hai (with ghar repeated) don't sound particularly inelegant/redundant/etc in the same way that the corresponding English sentences do if the word "house" is repeated. In practice, I think this repetition is probably what I would both use and expect to hear most of the time [^1], even when an idiomatic English translation would not involve a repetition.

Second: While I generally agree with the consensus above that tumhaaraa ghar mere se baRaa hai is "fine," I inhabit circles where the (prescriptively verboten) mujh_se → mere se substitution is very common in speech, so I strongly sympathize with the concern raised in the OP here:

If I said "tumhaara ghar mere se baRa hai", it'd mean "your house is bigger than me". (i.e. "mere se" would be interpreted as "mujhse")

That being said, I'd like to add that the colloquial oblique → genitive substitution witnessed in mujh_se → mere se is not stable across all person-numbers. In particular, I don't recall encountering the substitution us_se → us_ke se, so doing the comparison the other way and saying meraa ghar us_ke se chhoTaa hai doesn't seem to run into the same potential for ambiguity. (But this sentence too, I slightly prefer with a repeated ghar.)

Third:

res shuruu huii aur ant meN mere dost uske khilaaf jiit gaye.

This is supposed to be a truncated version of "mere dost us_ke dostoN ke xilaaf...", so I presume you probably meant to write "mere dost us_ke ke xilaaf..."? (Or maybe we can even fully subtantivize and go with "mere dost us_koN ke xilaaf..." ) Anyway, circling back to my first point, I entirely agree with @littlepond jii in #4 and @Qureshpor jii in #8 that attempting to drop the "possessee" in this sentence feels like a particularly "over-aggressive" application of this syntax.

---
Footnote:

[^1]: One sort of systematic exception to this that occurs to me at the moment is certain questions that end on the omitted words (eg: hamaaraa ghar baRaa hai yaa us_kaa? tere ghar chaleN yaa mere? kyaa aap sab X ke ghar se aa'o_ge yaa Y ke?). Here repetition does feel decidedly redundant.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Second: While I generally agree with the consensus above that tumhaaraa ghar mere se baRaa hai is "fine," I inhabit circles where the (prescriptively verboten) mujh_se → mere se substitution is very common in speech, so I strongly sympathize with the concern raised in the OP here:

With jaisaa comparisons, the substitution of the formative with the possessive oblique is still "prescriptively verboten", or it has reached mainstream status? Do people often say mujh jaisaa, etc.?

 

[littlepond]

Do people often say mujh jaisaa, etc.?

People use both "mujh jaisaa" and "mere jaisaa."

 

[aevynn]

... is still "prescriptively verboten", or it has reached mainstream status?

These aren't mutually exclusive, are they? Lots of things are verboten to prescriptivists despite being commonplace in speech...

Do people often say mujh jaisaa, etc.?

Yes, people do often say this. According to this post, it might even be the prescriptively preferred form, but who knows...

 

[Pokeflute]

That being said, I'd like to add that the colloquial oblique → genitive substitution witnessed in mujh_se → mere se is not stable across all person-numbers

Agreed - not to derail the thread but I've only really heard "mere se" and "tere se". (My pet theory is it's only the "ujh" oblique forms).

In that type of sentence, you could also have said "uske se," "unke se," etc. (standing for his/her house, their house, etc.)

I’ve been thinking about this. Theoretically “un ke ko” may be correct but it does sound rather weird. Let’s see if anyone else makes a comment on this.

This is supposed to be a truncated version of "mere dost us_ke dostoN ke xilaaf...", so I presume you probably meant to write "mere dost us_ke ke xilaaf..."?

Ah yes my bad - I see what you all mean. Applying the same pattern would yield using "uske + ke xilaaf/se/ko"

I agree very much with this and feel that this comment is probably one of the most important things to be taken away from this discussion. To my ears, at least, even simple sentences like tumhaaraa ghar mere ghar se baRaa hai (with ghar repeated) don't sound particularly inelegant/redundant/etc in the same way that the corresponding English sentences do if the word "house" is repeated. In practice, I think this repetition is probably what I would both use and expect to hear most of the time [^1], even when an idiomatic English translation would not involve a repetition.

Either way - seems like a pretty consistent takeaway (from you, Littlepond-ji, and Qureshpor-ji) that a literal translation from English is not the way to go here

Thanks all!

 

[Qureshpor]

In particular, I don't recall encountering the substitution us_se → us_ke se, so doing the comparison the other way and saying meraa ghar us_ke se chhoTaa hai doesn't seem to run into the same potential for ambiguity. (But this sentence too, I slightly prefer with a repeated ghar.)

Third:

---
Footnote:

[^1]: One sort of systematic exception to this that occurs to me at the moment is certain questions that end on the omitted words (eg: hamaaraa ghar baRaa hai yaa us_kaa? tere ghar chaleN yaa mere? kyaa aap sab X ke ghar se aa'o_ge yaa Y ke?). Here repetition does feel decidedly redundant.

I am glad I wasn’t the only one who hadn’t come across “us ke se”.

I would prefer to say…

kyaa aap sab X ke ghar se aa’eN ge yaa Y ke.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

I was under the impression that separating a nominal head from the postposition that subordinates it, is something generally avoided by HU speakers. us_ke se

 

[littlepond]

I was under the impression that separating a nominal head from the postposition that subordinates it, is something generally avoided by HU speakers. us_ke se

No. "us ke se," for example, is used, though most will rather prefer to use redundancy, for example, "us ke ghar se."

 

[Qureshpor]

I was under the impression that separating a nominal head from the postposition that subordinates it, is something generally avoided by HU speakers. us_ke se

Please bear in mind that my replies are Urdu based unless stated otherwise. I am not familiar with “us ke se” usage with in the realm of Urdu.