Hindi, Urdu: past tense of karnā

  • Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    If I recall correctly, Platts mentions this (karā /karī) in his "A Grammar of Hindustani or Urdu Language" (published at the end of the 19th century) as an alternative though, <kiyā / kī> have always been preferred by us and Platts also gives the latter preference.

    So,
    <kiyā / kī> are the standard forms.
     

    tamah

    Senior Member
    Fluent Hebrew, Avg. Hindi & Marathi, Good English, Horrid Russian
    kiya and ki are used more often. I have heard some rajasthanis and delhiites using kara or kari.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    A bit of an update: I've noticed that people do say "kara" in Lucknow as well. It's refreshing to my ears and reminds me of home :) I'd be interested to hear other opinions.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    A bit of an update: I've noticed that people do say "kara" in Lucknow as well. It's refreshing to my ears and reminds me of home :) I'd be interested to hear other opinions.

    All I will say is that..

    jo thaa nahiiN hai jo hai nah ho gaa yahii hai ik Harf-i-maHramaanah
    qariib-tar hai namuud jis kii, usii kaa mushtaaq hai zamaanah!!

    Iqbal


    I have never ever heard an Urdu speaker use "karaa", "kari" in place of "kiyaa", "kii". Neither have I read anything with this form anywhere in Urdu literature. I could never begin to use this form. It would be equivalent of my saying, "I writed this" for "I wrote this"!
     
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    BP.

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    ...
    I have never ever heard an Urdu speaker use "karaa", "kari" in place of "kiyaa", "kii". Neither have I read anything with this form anywhere in Urdu literature. I could never begin to use this form. It would be equivalent of my saying, "I writed this" for "I wrote this"!

    In spoken language, karaa is an oft-heard alternative to kiyaa.
     

    tonyspeed

    Senior Member
    English & Creole - Jamaica
    Interesting to know. The rules of common sense do prevail in colloquial speech after all!
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Interesting to know. The rules of common sense do prevail in colloquial speech after all!

    Yet, this so called "common sense" is not consistent. If it were consistent we would have had have..

    honaa>>>hoyaa (not hu'aa)
    chhuunaa>>chhuuyaa (not chhu'aa)
    jaanaa>>> jaayaa (not gayaa)
    lenaa >>> leyaa (not liyaa)
    denaa>>>deyaa (not diyaa)
    siinaa>>>siiyaa (not siyaa)


     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    "karaa" as past tense of "karnaa" is very common in spoken language (and an alternative that I would prefer, for phonic reasons, any day).

    As regarding consistency, I don't see what's wrong with that, since there's no one pattern, as it seems to me: the past tense of "bachnaa" is "bachayaa", but that of "rakhnaa" is not "rakhayaa" but "rakhaa", that of "naachnaa" is "naachaa" and so on.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    "karaa" as past tense of "karnaa" is very common in spoken language (and an alternative that I would prefer, for phonic reasons, any day).

    As regarding consistency, I don't see what's wrong with that, since there's no one pattern, as it seems to me: the past tense of "bachnaa" is "bachayaa", but that of "rakhnaa" is not "rakhayaa" but "rakhaa", that of "naachnaa" is "naachaa" and so on.

    The point, Greatbear SaaHib, is that a natural language is neither consistent nor always logical but if "karaa" is based on "common sense", then one would expect this common sense to be a bit more prevalent.

    My understanding is that the past participle of "bachnaa" is "bachaa". Just as regular as the other examples you have provided.
     

    BP.

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    I think I should elaborate a little bit more the post 7. When I said karaa is part of spoken language, I did not mean all spoken language. The use of karaa would have pointed at a specific school of language and even a specific class of people. Personally I have my own predilection towards kiyaa in ways others might find a-normal e.g. saying mai.n fulaa.n kaam kiyee luu.n gaa. I am hypothesizing it carries over from my more natural phrasing ham fulaa.n kaam kiyee lee.n gee. Like panjabigator I too have met one person outside of the Dilli dabistaan who uses karaa, but I suspect it may also be from his circle of friends rather than his Behaari-Bengaali variant of Urdu.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I should also say that I've heard "karia" and "karii" in Punjabi as well. (Not what we use though).

    I have n't. This must reflect on the type of company I keep!:)

    It is interesting, is n't it, that Punjabi too has an irregular past participle verb for "karNRaa" in the form "kiitaa"?
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I have n't. This must reflect on the type of company I keep!:)

    It is interesting, is n't it, that Punjabi too has an irregular past participle verb for "karNRaa" in the form "kiitaa"?
    Just a small hint as to Pb infinitive of this verb: there can never be a retroflex (i hope I'm using the correct term?) NR
     

    ihaveacomputer

    Member
    Canadian English
    And what is the explanation behind this assertion?

    Following a stem ending with "r" (ر / ਰ), the retroflex "r" (ڑ /ੜ) and retroflex "n" (ن / ਣ), the first nasal consonant of the infinitive is the dental "n", not the retroflex form. I realize this isn't shown in Shahmukhi, but according to standard written Punjabi in the Gurmukhi script, this rule always applies. Are there dialects of spoken Punjabi in which this is not the case?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Following a stem ending with "r" (ر / ਰ), the retroflex "r" (ڑ /ੜ) and retroflex "n" (ن / ਣ), the first nasal consonant of the infinitive is the dental "n", not the retroflex form. I realize this isn't shown in Shahmukhi, but according to standard written Punjabi in the Gurmukhi script, this rule always applies. Are there dialects of spoken Punjabi in which this is not the case?


    Yes I believe there are. In another post I have mentioned the Pakistani folk singer Shaukat Ali. I am almost 100% sure that I have heard him use the word "karNRaa" in one of his songs. If I find it, I shall post a reference to it. In addition, I do believe I have heard this retroflex in Punjabi speech.

    Some Shahmukhi texts do indicate the nasal retroflex with nuun superscript toe. If I find anything from literature, I shall once again post it.
     

    rahulbemba

    Senior Member
    English
    Greetings,

    Is it just a Delhi Hindi tendency to say <karā> and <karī> for <kiyā> and <kī>, respectively?

    Best wishes,
    PG

    You are right. I think it has come from there as it is very common there. People from Northern part of India especially Delhi go to places and keep spreading such incorrect usages.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    You are right. I think it has come from there as it is very common there. People from Northern part of India especially Delhi go to places and keep spreading such incorrect usages.


    What a sweeping stereotypical statement!
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    I agree that this statement seems somewhat biased and stereotypical. Qureshpor, how would you say stereotypical in Urdu, please?
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I agree that this statement seems somewhat biased and stereotypical. Qureshpor, how would you say stereotypical in Urdu, please?


    Please see seperate thread on this topic.
     
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    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    You are right. I think it has come from there as it is very common there. People from Northern part of India especially Delhi go to places and keep spreading such incorrect usages.

    Hindi is not the language that only you speak or the choices that only you agree with, Rahul; please avoid making huge brush strokes.
     

    rahulbemba

    Senior Member
    English
    Hindi is not the language that only you speak or the choices that only you agree with, Rahul; please avoid making huge brush strokes.

    Please avoid such personal comments. Please learn to respect others' opinions. That is all I can say to you. What I had said, was based on my experience from what I have seen. There is no need to get provoked or agitated just because it doesn't agree with your experience.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Yes I believe there are. In another post I have mentioned the Pakistani folk singer Shaukat Ali. I am almost 100% sure that I have heard him use the word "karNRaa" in one of his songs. If I find it, I shall post a reference to it. In addition, I do believe I have heard this retroflex in Punjabi speech.

    Some Shahmukhi texts do indicate the nasal retroflex with nuun superscript toe. If I find anything from literature, I shall once again post it.

    Just a brief comment: I used to think that such a phonetic cluster was not used in Punjabi, but I've read quite a bit of it so far in Gurumukhi. Never heard it so far, though.

    You are right. I think it has come from there as it is very common there. People from Northern part of India especially Delhi go to places and keep spreading such incorrect usages.

    Those terrible Delhites! Promulgating their "non-standard" uses to the gullible, unsuspecting masses. I think this is a sweeping generalization, Rahulbemba. I have heard this from people outside of the Northern India, by the way.

    I'd be interested to learn of the Braj, Haryanvi, or even Avadhi past tenses for "karnaa," as I suspect that their might be something similar going on.
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    Please avoid such personal comments. Please learn to respect others' opinions. That is all I can say to you. What I had said, was based on my experience from what I have seen. There is no need to get provoked or agitated just because it doesn't agree with your experience.

    Keep to the facts and accept what you have said. It is not your opinion when you pronounce or declare something "incorrect."
     

    tonyspeed

    Senior Member
    English & Creole - Jamaica
    People from Northern part of India especially Delhi go to places and keep spreading such incorrect usages.

    I thought Hindi was a language of Northern origin? Unless we are now proposing Hydrabadi Hindi is the correct way? Or maybe you are referring to Hindi spoken in Madhya Pradesh
    as the correct way? Should we even begin to consider the "incorrect usages" present in Bombay Hindi?

    Differences from the standard exist and have probably existed from before the standard in many areas. So it is only incorrect when writing a book, not in spoken language.
     

    Todd The Bod

    Senior Member
    English-Midwest
    2 things. I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the Deccan was the center of muslim learning for centuries before the existence of Pakistan, and therefore Urdu was spoken in Hydrabad for centuries before it spread north. Though pretty much all varieties of Urdu have their own region-based slang. Corrections invited.

    Second, my Hydrabadi buddy always uses "karaa", "kare". Example: "Jo Aap karee, Thik karee....".
     

    tonyspeed

    Senior Member
    English & Creole - Jamaica
    2 things. I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that the Deccan was the center of muslim learning for centuries before the existence of Pakistan, and therefore Urdu was spoken in Hydrabad for centuries before it spread north. Though pretty much all varieties of Urdu have their own region-based slang. Corrections invited.

    Second, my Hydrabadi buddy always uses "karaa", "kare". Example: "Jo Aap karee, Thik karee....".

    Thank you for that useful information. You may want to research Dakhini on the web or on wikipedia.
     

    aprctr

    Member
    Urdu
    This is a colloquial or conversational ignorance developed by observing other rhyming verbs like bher (fill) > bheraa (filled), therefore, ker (do) > kara (did) which should be, ker (do) > keeya (did).
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yes I believe there are. In another post I have mentioned the Pakistani folk singer Shaukat Ali. I am almost 100% sure that I have heard him use the word "karNRaa" in one of his songs. If I find it, I shall post a reference to it. In addition, I do believe I have heard this retroflex in Punjabi speech.

    Some Shahmukhi texts do indicate the nasal retroflex with nuun superscript toe. If I find anything from literature, I shall once again post it.

    marrish SaaHib, please listen out for karaNR at 1.07 in Youtube.....just type 3) Kurtar Singh
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Just a small hint as to Pb infinitive of this verb: there can never be a retroflex (i hope I'm using the correct term?) NR
    marrish SaaHib, please listen out for karaNR at 1.07 in Youtube.....just type 3) Kurtar Singh

    Your long memory is at least worth noticing, Qureshpor SaaHib!

    Indeed, I must acknowledge that he sings karaNR, beyond any doubt. But I'd consider it a different situation than that of the infinitive which we were discussing earlier in this thread.

    I think this explanation below is very apt:

    Following a stem ending with "r" (ر / ਰ), the retroflex "r" (ڑ /ੜ) and retroflex "n" (ڻ* / ਣ), the first nasal consonant of the infinitive is the dental "n", not the retroflex form. I realize this isn't shown in Shahmukhi, but according to standard written Punjabi in the Gurmukhi script, this rule always applies. Are there dialects of spoken Punjabi in which this is not the case?

    In case of karaNR کرڻ, the retroflex nasal is phonetically justified as it follows the vowel ''a'', not the consonant ''r''.

    * my correction
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    ^ This I've been hoping for, that is why I answered like this. As a side note, I hope I'll be not be wrong to say that in Haryaanvi, it is articulated as karNRaa - if my memory serves me right!

    I've just noticed that you typed karaNRaa - was it intended or is it a typo?
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Following a stem ending with "r" (ر / ਰ), the retroflex "r" (ڑ /ੜ) and retroflex "n" (ن / ਣ), the first nasal consonant of the infinitive is the dental "n", not the retroflex form. I realize this isn't shown in Shahmukhi, but according to standard written Punjabi in the Gurmukhi script, this rule always applies. Are there dialects of spoken Punjabi in which this is not the case?

    I agreed with you, but then I encountered ਕਾਰਣ, and not just in Gurbani.
     

    ihaveacomputer

    Member
    Canadian English
    I agreed with you, but then I encountered ਕਾਰਣ, and not just in Gurbani.

    It is indeed very common, and was the form I personally preferred before I was corrected by a professor who said it was "too difficult" to pronounce! I wish I had a native's intuition to judge the veracity of that statement!
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    Probably a regional difference. It was kind of hard for me to say too! I'm sure you'd agree with me when I say that people LOVE to invent prescriptive rules about Punjabi.
     

    MonsieurGonzalito

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Argentina
    I just stumbled into a karii today.
    It is in the song "Aaja Nachle", from the homonym 2007 movie, featuring Madhuri Dixit.

    [3:05 in most Youtube videos]
    maiN ne galtii karii thii merii nathnii paRii thii
    ke sone meN usko raNgaa gaii


    In theory, what is narrated in the song happens in Bareilly, Uttar Pradesh. The song opens with:
    meraa jhumkaa uThaa ke laayaa yaar [ve]
    jo giraa thaa barelii ke baazaar meN
     

    desi4life

    Senior Member
    English
    Ghalatii

    [Edited: a forum member friend pointed out that, in addition to the Gh, my schwa suppression was too aggressive]

    In speech, “galtii”, “galatii”, “Ghaltii”, and “Ghalatii” are all used. However, it’s clearly sung as “galtii” in the song, not as “Ghalatii”.
     

    MonsieurGonzalito

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Argentina
    Thanks @littlepond , @desi4life .

    Curious fact: Until some time ago, Wikitionary had an entry for गलती, which said "Misspelling of ग़लती (ġaltī)."
    Now, if you enter गलती, you are simply redirected to ग़लती
     

    desi4life

    Senior Member
    English
    ^ गलती is not considered a misspelling in Hindi, so that’s probably why it’s redirected now instead.

    And regarding karaa/karii, Platts’ dictionary says the following:

    H کرا करा karā [Prk. करिअओ, or कलिअओ; S. कर (fr. कृ)+इत+कः], m. (f. -ī), The old (and regular) perfect part. of the verb karnā, 'to do,' &c. ( = kiyā).
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    I have never ever heard an Urdu speaker use "karaa", "kari" in place of "kiyaa", "kii". Neither have I read anything with this form anywhere in Urdu literature.

    Here are some literary examples :)

    us hindanii ne aisii jafaa'eN kariiN kih bas
    hinduu the ham, so ho ke musalmaaN chale ga'e
    - Jaun Elia (b. 1931)

    merii iste3maal karii hu'ii chiiz ab zindagii bhar aap bhii...
    - Wajida Tabassum (b. 1935)

    ye aaNkheN ik aise shaxS kaa
    3atiyaa haiN
    jis ne is dozax meN rah kar
    ik jannat aabaad karii thii
    nafs ko zanjiireN pahnaa kar
    ruuH apnii aazaad rakhii thii
    - Firoz Natiq Khusro (b. 1944)

    bad du3aa apne liye xuub karii thii maiN ne
    haaN magar raah meN Haa'il jo du3aa thii terii
    - Ziya Zamir (b. 1977)
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Thank you aevynn SaaHib for these. I could comment on each usage but won't. As a matter of interest, click on the word "karii" for the Rekhta.org sources and see what you get!
     

    aevynn

    Senior Member
    USA
    English, Hindustani
    As a matter of interest, click on the word "karii" for the Rekhta.org sources and see what you get!

    Yes, I did see that! That was indeed a matter of interest :) But I suppose it's not just karii that's homophonous with something else; the alternative, kii, is too (eg, with the feminine genitive postposition!).

    I don't know too much about poetic meters, but I suppose it's probably nice for poets working in tightly metered forms to be able to choose between kii(N) [long] and karii(N) [short + long]. And while the masculine participles (eg, kiyaa and karaa) would scan as [short + long], having both options around does open up the possibility for more rhymes! But of course, this proliferation of rhyme and meter options only works if the poet likes the sound of the regularized participles, which some may very well not! :)
     
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