Hindi, Urdu: proximal correlatives

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Friends,

Can proximal words like je, yahaaN, itnaa, idhaar, aisaa, ab, etc. be the correlatives in a relative-correlative construction?
In other words, are phrases like:

jo laRkii khaRii, ye laRkii lambii hai

jitnii ho sake, itnii madad karnii chaahie

jidhar tuu jaae, idhar maiN bhii jauuN_gaa

jaise sharaab kaa nashaa hotaa hai, aise hii settaa kaa bhi nashaa hotaa hai

... idiomatic?

At first thought, I would assume that no, because the relative construction already forces us to talk about the thing being introduced in an abstract, mentally detached (hence, distant) way.
But I don't really know. Are constructs like the above possible?

Thanks in advance.

 

[littlepond]

jo laRkii khaRii, ye laRkii lambii hai

This sentence does not make much sense from common sense point of view, but anyway, just for the sake of it, it should be "jo laRkii khaRii hai, voh lambii hai." You cannot avoid "hai" and you cannot repeat "laRkii": and you cannot have "yeh."

jitnii ho sake, itnii madad karnii chaahie

utnii

jidhar tuu jaae, idhar maiN bhii jauuN_gaa

vahaaN, udhar (usually, one wouldn't use bhii here).

jaise sharaab kaa nashaa hotaa hai, aise hii settaa kaa bhi nashaa hotaa hai

jaisaa and vaisaa. And I am assuming you mean saTTaa, as there is no word like settaa I know of. Also, there is no point to repeat nashaa! In other words, "jaisaa sharaab kaa nashaa hotaa hai, vaisaa hii saTTe kaa bhi hotaa hai."

Note that jaise and vaise would indicate the procedure of getting into nashaa (for example, what exactly happens in the brain, the chemical processes, etc.), and I don't think you meant those.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

saTTaa

I am sorry, sattaa
Paraphrasing this person here
Are you saying that the word choice with sattaa and nashaa is weird, or that the whole idea of being "drunk with power" is not idiomatic?

You cannot avoid "hai" and you cannot repeat "laRkii":

(I mistakenly thought that Hindi allowed some lassitude in repeating the main word)
That means I cannot say, for example:

jo saaRii sel maiN hai, maayaa us saaRii ko xariidegii ?

 

[littlepond]

I am sorry, sattaa
Paraphrasing this person here
Are you saying that the word choice with sattaa and nashaa is weird, or that the whole idea of being "drunk with power" is not idiomatic?

Ah, if you meant "sattaa," that is fine. As you had misspelled it as "settaa," I thought you had meant "saTTaa." Drunk with power would be idiomatic universally, I guess.

(I mistakenly thought that Hindi allowed some lassitude in repeating the main word)
That means I cannot say, for example:

jo saaRii sel maiN hai, maayaa us saaRii ko xariidegii ?

You can. But why would you commit such a horrible redundancy? (In certain situations, for example, when conspirating saas-bahu make a plan in a Hindi soap, they would repeat: because, such repetition is usually for low IQ, extra drama.) Most people wouldn't even say all that: they would simply say "Maayaa sel vaalii saaRii khariidegii." But let's imagine a better situation: "jis saaRii pe maiN ne neelaa nishaan lagaa diyaa hai, tum usii ko le lenaa."

By the way, "meN," not "main," and most Hindi speakers would say "khariidegii."

 

[amiramir]

The dictionary link above says सत्ता is masculine ('nm'). But I assume it must be feminine because it is not declining in the examples above?

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

I believe you are right. In the examples at the Urdu Lughat we have
(from the Bhagavad Gita)
jis kii sattaa se sab jagat cheSHTaa kartaa hai ...

 

[littlepond]

The dictionary link above says सत्ता is masculine ('nm'). But I assume it must be feminine because it is not declining in the examples above?

"sattaa" is feminine.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Today I stumbled upon a couple of examples that "mix" correlative types.
By "mixing" I mean that they use a relative word from one category (say, relative pronouns) and a a correlative word from another category (for example, an adverb).

One of the examples is from the song and movie "Sarfarosh"

yaaro, aise gulshan ko [jise sar-faroshoN ne lahuu de ke siiNchaa hai] ujRne se bachaa lo
"Comrades, such garden [to which the fearless watered givin their blood] let's preserve it from being devastated"

The other is the famous poem by Faiz:

raat yuuN dil meN terii khoii huii yaad aaii [jaise viiraane meN chupke se bahaar aa jaae]
"In the night your lost memory (in this way) came to (my) heart, as spring comes quietly to a barren place"

What called my attention is that the words in bold (aise, yuuN), wich are acting as a counterpart of the relative clause in the main sentence, are both proximal variants (as opposed to vaise, vuuN).

I am not sure how to interpret this.
Could it be that, in the context of relative-correlative sentences of a "mixed" type, using proximal correlatives is acceptable?

 

[littlepond]

Regarding your first example, I don't see at all why "jaise," "jise," etc., should force any "vaise" in any kind of sentence, not just this one. For example, "us ne aise kaam kiyaa jaise kuchh huaa hii naa ho." You cannot even have "vaise" here instead of "aise," forget being acceptable or not.

Regarding your second example, "yuuN" (or "jyuuN" for some people) is an adverb, meaning "in such a way, style": in other words, "aise." There is no "vuuN"--or, if it exists, it must be so rare that I have never heard it. Or, rather, "vuuN" in my experience exists to replace the impersonal "voh," as in "vuuN jaa rahaa hai tiin pair vaalaa aadmii" ("there goes the man with three legs"). "yuun" here would, rather, mean "the man with three legs is going in this way."

amaa @MonsieurGonzalito jii, yuuN kareN ki hindustaanii ko hindustaanii meN hii raihne deN, duusrii bolii se naa aTaak jaayaa kareN.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Regarding your second example, "yuuN" (or "jyuuN" for some people) is an adverb, meaning "in such a way, style": in other words, "aise." There is no "vuuN"--or, if it exists, it must be so rare that I have never heard it.

Interesting!

Grammars present these kind of words in groups of 5:

- the relative in j : jo, jahaaN, ...
- the proximal in i or y: ye, yahaaN, ...
- the distant in u or v : vo, vahaaN ...
- the old "pure correlative" in s or t: so, tahaaN ...
- the interrogative in k: kaun?, kahaaN?, ...

So I assumed that jyuuN, and vuuN would follow the same pattern, this is:

- relative: juuN or jyuuN
- proximal: yuuN or yoN
- distant: vuuN or voN
- "pure correlative": tyuuN or tyoN
- interrrogative (oddball in terms of meaning): kyuN? or kyoN?

So "yuuN" would not be the same as "jyuuN": one is the proximal (="in this way"), and the other the relative (="in such a way").

vuuN definitiely exists in Urdu, with the correlative sentence I indicate (although it must be so rare, that it is difficult to find examples, even in Urdu). I asked about it in a thread a few days back. The sentence says:

juuN juuN liyaa teraa naaoN, vuuN vuuN maaraa saaraa gaaoN
"As I invoked Your name, I conquered the whole village"

But if you never heard of it, I would assume it doesn't exist in Hindi.
Neither does voN? It is in Platts

PLATTS

वों

وون

وون वों woṅ, or वूं wūṅ [Ap. Prk. एम्वइ, loc. sing. of एम्व, Prk. एव, fr. S. इयत् (Ved. ईवत्)], adv. In that manner, thus, so, like that:—woṅ-kā woṅ-hī, adv. Exactly the same as before or originally:—woṅ-hī, or wūṅ-hī, or woṅ-hīṅ, or wūṅ-hīṅ, adv.=wahīṅ or wǒhīṅ, q.v.

"vuuN jaa rahaa hai tiin pair vaalaa aadmii" ("there goes the man with three legs"). "yuun" here would, rather, mean "the man with three legs is going in this way."

In light of what I just said, could vuuN and yuuN be simply 2 aspects (proximal and distant) of the same modal adverb ("he walks this way" versus "he walks that way")?

 

[desi4life]

Interesting!
But if you never heard of it, I would assume it doesn't exist in Hindi.

vuuN/voN certainly exists in Hindi. Here’s an entry from Oxford Hindi-English:

वों voṁ , adv. in that way, thus, like that (cf. यों 'like this').

It’s not ubiquitously used in spoken language like yuuN/yoN.

 

[Qureshpor]

One of the examples is from the song and movie "Sarfarosh"

yaaro, aise gulshan ko [jise sar-faroshoN ne lahuu de ke siiNchaa hai] ujRne se bachaa lo
"Comrades, such garden [to which the fearless watered givin their blood] let's preserve it from being devastated"

The other is the famous poem by Faiz:

raat yuuN dil meN terii khoii huii yaad aaii [jaise viiraane meN chupke se bahaar aa jaae]
"In the night your lost memory (in this way) came to (my) heart, as spring comes quietly to a barren place"

This pairing is quite normal..

ek jaan-var aisaa, jis kii dum par paisaa (Riddle - Answer- mor)

aise gulshan ko jise/jis ko sar-faroshoN ne lahuu de ke siiNchaa hai..

Such a garden which has been irrigated by the blood of those prepared to gamble their lives..

raat (ko) yuuN dil meN tirii (not terii) yaad aa'ii
jaise viiraane meN chupke se bahaar aa jaa'e
jaise saHraa'oN meN haule se chale baad-i-nasiim
jaise biimaar ko be-vajh qaraar aa jaa'e

Here juuN/jyuuN could have replaced jaise to depict manner with the same meaning.

Here is a link to "kalark kaa naGhmah-i-muHabbat", a nazm by Miraji in Urdu in which you'll find yuuN ..vuuN

میراجی - نظم

 

[littlepond]

But if you never heard of it, I would assume it doesn't exist in Hindi.

It may well exist, but as I have not heard it, only a limited set of speakers must still be using it. In other words, obsolete already or becoming obsolete.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

This is the part of the poem by Miirajii that @Qureshpor jii suggested.

What is the meaning of the expression wo(h) yuuN kɛhtaa hai vuuN kɛhtaa hai ?
It seems to be idiomatic.
The context is: some dreamy office clerk thinking of the beloved, and of a better life in general.

afsar ...
yuuN kɛhtaa hai vuuN kɛhtaa hai lekin bekaar hii rɛhtaa hai
maiN us kii aisii baatoN se thak jaataa huuN thak jaataa huuN

"He spoke as he spoke?" "No matter how he spoke?"

(This site suggests: "He told me to do this and that")
(This other site suggests: "He speaks forward and backwards").

 

[Qureshpor]

This is the part of the poem by Miirajii that @Qureshpor jii suggested.

Yes, Qureshpor Jii did indeed suggest this poem by Miraji. His real name was Muhammad Sana Ullah Dar (1912-1949). He fell in love with a young lady called Mira Sen, in Lahore and in her love, changed his name to Miraji.

What is the meaning of the expression wo(h) yuuN kɛhtaa hai vuuN kɛhtaa hai ?
It seems to be idiomatic.

The background with regard to the line in question is that he works in an office which he considers "bandii-xaanah" (prison) where his boss, the afsar/officer turns up to work whenever he feels like it while the poet himself has a deluge of work which drives him senseless..

"juuN-tuuN rastah kaT jaataa hai aur bandii-xaanah aataa hai"

One way or another, the journey comes to an end and I arrive at the prison!

"phir kaam kaa daryaa bahtaa hai aur hosh mujhe kab rahtaa hai"

Then a torrent of work flows, so how could I maintain my senses!

At last the Afsar turns up and sends his chapraasii (peon) to summon him to his office and...

"yuuN kahtaa hai vuuN kahtaa hai lekin be-kaar hii rahtaa hai"

He tells me one thing and then another without offering any reasons while he himself sits idle.


Urdu Lughat (See 4)