Hindi/Urdu, Punjabi: jhooTa

lcfatima

Senior Member
English USA
I believe jooTa means "used," but I feel the way I hear it being used connotes some kind of meaning of ritual purity as well. Can someone kindly explain this?

eg.

Yeh doodh mat piyo, jooTa hai.
 
  • huhmzah

    Senior Member
    Urdu - English
    Yep! The word is झूटा (jh ūTa) and it's used to mean food or drink that someone else has already taken a bite or sip from, making it ritually impure -- it has absolutely nothing to do with the other person's cleanliness -- In Pakistan "jhuTa-sensitivities" vary from family to family and typically being "jhuta-sensitive" is frowned upon in more conservative Muslim families where it's seen as a Hindu-custom or demeaning to others. On the other hand my Hindu friends tell me that typically the more "conservative" the person, the more hyper-jhuTa-sensitive they will be -- they were telling me that people in certain families will habitually always drink water from a glass by "pouring" it into their mouth and not touching it with their lips (even in their own homes with their own glasses), as it's seen as "jhuTa".
     

    lcfatima

    Senior Member
    English USA
    Thanks for the explanation. This must be why I have seen people smoke cigarettes or drink from bottles without touching it to their lips.

    Perhaps a moderator can change jooTa to jhooTa.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    If there is an exchange of saliva with the beverage or food item, it's <jūṭhā>. My family was fairly conservative about this and it led to some awkward reactions from college friends when I ritually refused to share food or drink (or if I did, I abandoned it thereafter). I believe for some people, there is no concept of <jūṭhā> for mother and child, so sharing is permissible there.

    I've since kicked my old habbits and now share :)
     
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    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Sensitivities to <jhooTaa khaanaa piinaa> are seen in some cultures more than others. In Iraq and Iran we found this to be virtually absent, though some families did behave like us.

    The topic reminds me of this:
    <JhooTa khaate hai.n meeThe kii laalach mei.n> جھوٹا كھاتے ہیں میٹھے كی لالچ میں= suffering trials and tribulations to gain benefit.
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    It just occured to me that in my family, we say <jūṭhā> with an unaspirated jiim and I just confirmed this with McGregor's Hindi Dictionary (जूठा) and Punjabi University's Punjabi-English dictionary (ਜੂਠਾ). What Huhmzah, Faylasoof and I have written above appears to be the word for 'lier'. Have we all mistransliterated or is this a different word?

    Side note: For you Mac users, I have stumbled upon some new macrons which are helpful in representing retroflex sounds. PM me if you are interested.
     
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    BP.

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    No Icf, in Urdu its jhooTa alright, while in Punjabi jooTha. Maybe Hindi behaves like Punjabi on this occasion. Yeah it is the same word as liar or darogh go.

    Another word is khorda shuda, but it these days doesn't convey the exact sense of jhooTa, simply that part of the food has been consumed and part left.
     

    Faylasoof

    Senior Member
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I must second BP on this.

    We use an aspirated <jeem> = <jh> ! Apart form us all Luckhnaviis I’ve met also do the same. So we use the same word with two different meanings. Further confirmed below:

    If you go to page 262 on this online Hindustani / Urdu-English Dictionary by John Shakespeare, you’ll notice that both <jooTaa> and <jhooThaa> spellings are listed. With the following meanings:

    - Liar , false
    - (among Hindus touched food) That which is thereby defiled, left (food)


    As we all know, the second definition is by no means restricted to Hindus.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Can I get some more input from other Hindi, Urdu and Punjabi speakers here? Very interesting conversation that I'd like to reignite.


    In Punjabi, we differentitate between a "ch_huuThaa" person (a liar) and a "juuThaa" item of food or drink (e.g "juuThaa dudh" or "juuThii khiir".
     

    rahulbemba

    Senior Member
    English
    In Hindi:

    jhootha झूठा - one who tells lies, or a liar
    jootha जूठा - a food or an item which has been partially eaten or touched by mouth by someone else.

    Both words are very different. At times people misspell "jootha" with "jhootha" (or any word with "J" as starting with "Jh") and it is wrong to do so.

    You will not find this concept of "jootha" in many other cultures and this is unique to the culture of Hindus. Hindus avoid eating someone else's "jootha" making it a point of hygiene. (this concept may also be applicable to even those who are not exactly Hindus in India; because of culture impacts society and is not exactly binding on a religion alone). But in general this concept came from Hindu culture and Hinduism.

    In fact there is no exact translation available for this word in many languages, because in their culture it was not considered wrong to eat from someone else's partially-taken food and hence they never had such a word.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    In Hindi:

    jhootha झूठा - one who tells lies, or a liar
    jootha जूठा - a food or an item which has been partially eaten or touched by mouth by someone else.

    Both words are very different. At times people misspell "jootha" with "jhootha" (or any word with "J" as starting with "Jh") and it is wrong to do so.


    Your explanation is in line with Punjabi where there are two seperate words for a liar and "contaminated" utensil or food. However, Platts gives the definion as below, which is how the word is used in Urdu (minus the aspiration of Th).

    H جهوٿها झूठा jhūṭhā [jhūṭh+Prk. अअं=S. अ+कं], s.m. Leavings of food, &c.=jhūṭh, q.v.;—adj. (f. -ī), Touched (by food), defiled;—lying, false; pretended, feigned, insincere, sham, hypocritical; groundless, imaginary; supposititious; delusive, illusive, vain; unsound, invalid; fictitious, invented, artificial, forged (as a document); counterfeit, not genuine; not pure, alloyed, base (as coin); failing of power, untrustworthy, useless (as a limb, a tool, &c.);—s.m. A false person, a liar:
     

    rahulbemba

    Senior Member
    English
    Your explanation is in line with Punjabi where there are two separate words for a liar and "contaminated" utensil or food. However, Platts gives the definion as below, which is how the word is used in Urdu (minus the aspiration of Th).[/unquote]

    Obviously Punjabi and Hindi are sister-languages and have much in common. I am not surprised at all if the concept is same in Punjabi and Hindi.

    I have no knowledge of Urdu language and hence can't tell. As you are saying it is different case in Urdu where the two words are same, I will be better watchful now
    smile.png


    Btw, "contaminated" is no proper translation for "jootha". "Contaminated" is used for different purpose, its connotations are more indicating towards "physical" aspect, while "jootha" is more towards notional...
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I believe jooTa means "used," but I feel the way I hear it being used connotes some kind of meaning of ritual purity as well. Can someone kindly explain this?

    eg. Yeh doodh mat piyo, jooTa hai.


    Several references provide the following meaning.

    Jutha:The 'left-overs' of food offered to a deity, the deity having extracted the essence of the food.

    1) Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Religion: Ramesh Chopra (Page 411)

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Inh_WOfTLfAC&pg=PA411&lpg=PA411&dq=the+'left-overs'+of+food+offered+to+a+deity,+the+deity+having+extracted+the+essence+of+the+food&source=bl&ots=o4IUHCOjck&sig=QmoDxYKIZwST6tYlE71IHvFDCH0&hl=en&ei=r6aWTqPdA82DhQfhlImXBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=the 'left-overs' of food offered to a deity%2C the deity having extracted the essence of the food&f=false

    2) World religions: an introduction for students Jeaneane D.Fowler

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=joydUNzV5R0C&pg=PA400&lpg=PA400&dq=the+'left-overs'+of+food+offered+to+a+deity,+the+deity+having+extracted+the+essence+of+the+food&source=bl&ots=rpcV0zoPJ4&sig=6WX4g1IAZcp8X-QX7U5SQsvooEM&hl=en&ei=r6aWTqPdA82DhQfhlImXBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=the 'left-overs' of food offered to a deity%2C the deity having extracted the essence of the food&f=false

    For more details, there is an interesting piece of about a page in length under Hinduism (second paragraph especially) in the Encyclopaedia Britannica. A reader should be able to make his own mind about the concept's origins and significance and its relevance to hygiene if any.

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/162787/dietary-law/66416/Hinduism#ref538313
     
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    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    jootha (adj.)/joothadn (noun) are used to indicate something used or tasted by the other (and often, the other who had no right to); it is not only food or offerings to gods that can be joothe but also woman, things, etc. The "impurity" is not because of any contamination in itself but because of having used by someone else; for most Hindus, drinking or eating with/from the same spoon, glass, etc., is unthinkable (as also for me) and often considered "unhygienic".
     
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    lcfatima

    Senior Member
    English USA
    Just curious, in Hindi, does the concept of jooTha termed as such extend beyond food and apply to other aspects of ritual purity like menstruation and death? Such as the practice of isolation of women from cooking spaces or temple spaces during menstruation, or family members of a deceased person not being able to participate in festive celebrations like weddings or holidays for a year following the death?

    I was reading something about the Nepali Hindu concept of jooTho, and Nepali Hindus consider ritually contaminated food jooTho, but also the term jooTho was used to describe these two other situations of ritual impurity. In Hindi can we also call other forms of ritual impurity jooTha?
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    No, you cannot use "jootha" in both your examples. A space would be "dooshit"; also, I think it is the family members of the deceased that decide to not celebrate a festival, no one is ousting them from anything. How can a third party decide for them?
     

    rahulbemba

    Senior Member
    English
    Hi lcfatima, the term 'jootha' is only used with relation to eating or drinking, but never in the other circumstances on the lines you have cited... It may be some other similar-sounding term for the cases you found...
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    No, not just with eating or drinking; many things, including a woman, chance, etc., as I said earlier, can be "jootha/i".
     

    rahulbemba

    Senior Member
    English
    A stri could of course be joothi, and so can many other things and concepts.

    I don't agree with this. Please show some examples, references to prove it. What you say here is opposite of what you said in post#21 also. But give examples. I don't think a stri or a purush would be called jootha. It is very incorrect usage IMO.
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    I am saying the same thing as in post no. 19, and post no. 21 has nothing to do with what I am saying there. Many of the Hindi films would be the best reference; however, though usually I dislike references (!), I will satisfy you this one point of time: why do you think Omprakash Valmiki's book is called "Joothan: A Dalit's Life"?
    http://www.shunya.net/Text/Blog/Joothan.htm
     

    panjabigator

    Senior Member
    Am. English
    I've heard people called "joothe" before. How about in the song ना ना करते प्यार तुम्ही से कर बैठे? And then there is "joothe muunh."
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    I've heard people called "joothe" before. How about in the song ना ना करते प्यार तुम्ही से कर बैठे? And then there is "joothe muunh."

    In the song, it is a completely another word, "jhoothe" (false; jhoothe afsaane), not "joothe".
     

    lcfatima

    Senior Member
    English USA
    Is food from an unacceptable source or prepared by an unacceptable person also "jooTha?" What is the jooThan a reference to for the Dalit book?
     

    greatbear

    Banned
    India - Hindi & English
    Is food from an unacceptable source or prepared by an unacceptable person also "jooTha?"

    No, it is not.

    What is the jooThan a reference to for the Dalit book?

    Joothan (जूठण) is the noun form of the adjective jootha, and thus means the same: leftovers of someone. The book has the title because leftover food of someone (someone's jootha) is an anathema for many in Hindu society, just as Dalits were an anathema/untouchables for many in India.
     
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    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I am a bit perplexed about this. When both Urdu and Hindi have their foundation in khaRii-bolii, how does one language end up having the word as jhuuTaa (in older Urdu jhuuThaa) whilst a number of people have said that in Hindi it is "juuThaa". Can someone please provide a quote from some reputable Hindi-English dictionary. I am curious as to how jh/j shift has taken place.
     

    BP.

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    A loss of aspiration has occurred elsewhere as well, e.g. paudhaa, nibhaanaa etc. It appears (without extensive brainstorming for examples) to not occur for the first consonant.
     

    Qureshpor

    Senior Member
    Panjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    A loss of aspiration has occurred elsewhere as well, e.g. paudhaa, nibhaanaa etc. It appears (without extensive brainstorming for examples) to not occur for the first consonant.

    janaab-i-vaalaa, idhar kisii "gas" kii baat nahiiN puuchhii jaa rahii balkih j>jh/jh>j ke "Thos" badal kaa savaal hai!:)
     

    marrish

    Senior Member
    اُردو Urdu
    Joothan (जूठण) is the noun form of the adjective jootha, and thus means the same: leftovers of someone. The book has the title because leftover food of someone (someone's jootha) is an anathema for many in Hindu society, just as Dalits were an anathema/untouchables for many in India.
    Linguistic question. If juuThaN is the noun for left overs, what is the semantic and structural meaning of the adjective?
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    Dear Foreros,

    In relation to left-overs and food leavings we usually speak in the plural referring to them as jhuuThe i.e a couple might proclaim to have each others jhuuThe. However, a left-over would be called a jhuuThaa i.e us kaa jhuuThaa pakoRaa khaane lag bheTii tii. This being firstly put out there and settled, my question of interest was with regards to whether "jhuuThoN" could also be used in the context of leavings or is that merely reserved for people i.e liars? Could you say "jhuuThoN ko khaanaa" as you would for jhuuThe khaanaa and similarly would a jhuuTe kaa banaa sandwich also be a jhuuThoN kaa banaa sandwich i.e. made out of left-overs?

    Best Regards,
    Sheikh
     

    Dib

    Senior Member
    Bengali (India)
    Isn't the word used in the food context (juuThaa) different from the one for "fake, etc." (jhuuT(h)aa)?
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    That is exactly right desi, in fact I am not sure if any Urdu speaker does make this distinction or even if the other word is in the Urdu diction. Platt's most certainly recognises both, however, would Urdu speakers'? Lastly do kindly turn to my original question if you may. Thanks everyone and most especially those who have or will end up participating.
     

    Sheikh_14

    Senior Member
    English- United Kingdom, Urdu, Punjabi
    So would jhuThoN then be correct for leavings as in kal parso ke jhuThoN kaa banaa sandwich or would that be viewed as a sandwich made of liars which would make no sense unless you physically made it so.
     

    MonsieurGonzalito

    Senior Member
    Castellano de Argentina
    So, just to be clear, then:

    The word झूठा as in false, counterfeit, deceiving, etc. is not spelt in Urdu جھوٹھا as one would expect, but جھوٹا and Platts is wrong?
     

    desi4life

    Senior Member
    English
    So, just to be clear, then:

    The word झूठा as in false, counterfeit, deceiving, etc. is not spelt in Urdu جھوٹھا as one would expect, but جھوٹا and Platts is wrong?

    In Urdu it was more commonly spelled جھوٹھا in the past but nowadays is spelled جھوٹا instead. In Hindi the spelling has remained झूठा (with झूटा as a lesser used spelling).
     
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