Hindi, Urdu: tum vo karoge jo ham kaheN_ge

[MonsieurGonzalito]

Friends,

The 2004 Hindi movie "Lakshya" is about a lazy, aimless young adult, who worries his parents.
At some point, out of a whim, he decides to join the Army. And his father, having had enough of his antics, shouts to him in anger:

tum vo karo_ge jo ham kaheN_ge!

In Spanish, we would have used the subjunctive mood, and not the future, to express that kaheN_ge = "¡Tú harás lo que yo te diga!"
The reasons why we use the subjunctive in Spanish are basically idiomatic.
I could try to rationalize it and chance that we do that because we want to "open up" the possible things the father might tell him ( jo bhii ham kaheN_ge) , or that we use the subjunctive to convey the inherent uncertainty of any future event (which HU doesn't).
But ultimately, we use the subjunctive just because it is customary for us to do so.

We would use the indicative future only in the marginal case where there is no uncertainty whatsoever, i.e. if the father had a "specific plan" in mind to tell the son, at some set moment. "Tú harás lo que yo te diré (oportunamente)." = "You will do what I will tell you (at the right time)."
Which is clearly not the situation in the movie.

So, my question is: would the subjunctive

tum vo karo_ge jo ham kaheN!

be justified under any circumstance in HU, for a situation such as the one I described in the movie?

Thanks in advance for any answers or comments.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

In the movie, the father wants to dictate his son's future behavior, so there is a reasonable expectations that things will be said.
Maybe he could have used the subjunctive if he wanted to also contemplate the scenario that things might not be said?

tum vo karo_ge jo ham kaheN (na(h) kaheN) = "You will do what I (might or might not) say" ?

 

[marrish]

The example sentence demonstrates just the opposite of what you seem to be aiming at. You'd preferably need a sentence with a subjunctive to begin with in order to be able or to have someone ascertain whether there is any overlap of that subjunctive and the Spanish one.

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

OK.
Take these 2 sentences:

1. jab meN puuraa kar luN, to aap_ko bataa duuN_ga
2. jab meN puuraa kar luN_ga, to aap_ko bataa duuN_ga

In Spanish, both sentences are translated as:
"Cuando termine (<= subjunctive), le avisaré".

Only the subjunctive is acceptable in Spanish.
In Spanish it is not idiomatic to say something like: "When I will finish, I will let you know" = "Cuando terminaré, le avisaré."
And, as we already "spent" the subjunctive, there is no further nuance that can be conveyed about likelihood of the "finishing" part.

My impression is that, because HU does not suffer from that idiomatic imposition of using the subjunctive for any "when" + [future], it can "reserve" the subjunctive for situations of true uncertainty of the "finishing".
Hence, I interpret the 2 sentences above in this way:

- jab meN puuraa kar luN_ga, to aap_ko bataa duuN_ga => "When I finish (reasonable/standard level of certainty), I will let you know"

- jab meN puuraa kar luN, to aap_ko bataa duuN_ga => "When I finish (in case I finish at all), I will let you know".


Now, applying the same above reasoning to the example in the OP, my conclusion is that it would not have been idiomatic in HU for the father to say:

tu vo karo_ge jo ham kaheN

because some level of "saying" by the father in the future is to be expected.

Is that the right conclusion?

 

[littlepond]

tum vo karo_ge jo ham kaheN_ge!

You will do what we are going to tell you.

This is a more immediate instruction.

tum vo karo_ge jo ham kaheN!

The timing is more unspecified: you will do whatever we say.

 

[littlepond]

OK.
Take these 2 sentences:

1. jab meN puuraa kar luN, to aap_ko bataa duuN_ga
2. jab meN puuraa kar luN_ga, to aap_ko bataa duuN_ga

I again see this as more of a matter of immediacy. In the second sentence, the speaker has a certain definiteness about the completion, but that definiteness is more about the time frame (mostly, immediate) within which the speaker thinks he can complete the action. I don't see much uncertainty about the willingness to complete in the first sentence.

Note that the second sentence will be translated as "When I will have completed (the action), I will let you know." I am surprised that Spanish does not have a future perfect tense, judging from your posts. French does have ("quand je l'aurai fini ...).

 

[MonsieurGonzalito]

You will do what we are going to tell you.

The timing is more unspecified: you will do whatever we say.

If this is true, then the usage is very similar to Spanish.
My impression from the movie is that the father was just shocked by the news, and he didn't have anything specific in mind to tell his son, that he was clearly just telling him to stop doing any more foolish things, and to be more obedient in general.
But he was a domineering, self-made businessman. Maybe he was already formulating a specific plan as he spoke, to extricate the son from that situation ...

"When I will have completed (the action), I will let you know." I am surprised that Spanish does not have a future perfect tense, judging from your posts. French does have ("quand je l'aurai fini ...).

Spanish does have a future perfect tense of the indicative mood: "yo habré finalizado".
But that tense is unlikely to be used after a "when .../ jab ..." for the same reasons I explained above: we idiomatically use the subjunctive to express the inherent uncertainty of a future action.
Therefore, we would use the perfect subjunctive to in those cases: "Cuando yo haya finalizado ..."


That all said, I am surprised that you called "[jab meN puuraa kar luN_ga], to aap_ko bataa duuN_ga" a "perfect future".
I had the "perfect future" as something like "meN puraa kar le chukuuN_ga"?

 

[littlepond]

I had the "perfect future" as something like "meN puraa kar le chukuuN_ga"?

Such a syntax does not exist. It would be "maiN pooraa kar chukuNgaa."