Holy Mecca

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by jmt356, Aug 18, 2013.

  1. jmt356 Senior Member

    MSA: Holy Mecca

    مَكَة ألْمُكَرِمَّة

    However, I often hear it pronounced:
    مَكَةِ ألْمُكَرِمَّة

    I believe placing a كسرة after the first word—مكة—causes the phrase to become an إضافة expression—i.e., Mecca of the Holy. I believe that is wrong and the expression should therefore be pronounced:
    مَكَة ألْمُكَرِمَّة
    (i.e., the Holy Mecca)

    If that is true, then why do I hear it pronounced:
    مَكَةِ ألْمُكَرِمَّة
  2. Pospana Member

    Hi jmt356,
    I believe that the correct answer is مَكَّةُ المُكَرَّمَةُ in nominative, while in genitive e.g. after a proposition it becomes مكةَ المكرمةِ (there's a fatha after مكةَ, it's not quite visible...I think it's one of those nouns that take a fatha both in genitive and accusative, being a geographical term, like مصر, please somebody correct me if I'm wrong).

    It might be that the spoken language somewhat favorites the kasra alltogether, I'm not quite sure, just my two cents. Or people simply don't follow the rule about the genitive form with a fatha, and make it into a kasra after prepositions so you got to hear it that way many times.
  3. إسكندراني

    إسكندراني Senior Member

    أرض الأنجل
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    It's a وصف not an إضافة.
    And مكرم is 'honoured' rather than 'holy'.
  4. jmt356 Senior Member

    As I understood the rule with respect to إضافة, a ة after the first noun is pronounced as ت. Example:
    غرفة تدريس (room of instruction)
    Pronounced ghurfat tadris

    However, where the second word is merely an adjective of a noun ending in ة, the ة is not pronounced as a ت. Example:
    غرفة كبيرة (a big room)
    Pronounced ghurfa kabira, not ghurfat

    However, based on the above posts, it seems that a ة is pronounced as a ت whether it is followed by a noun in an إضافة construction or whether it is followed by an adjective.
  5. clevermizo Senior Member

    St. Louis, MO
    English (USA), Spanish
    This is true for spoken Arabic and to the way that MSA is often pronounced, but really the ـة is always pronounced as ت unless it is in pause. If it is followed by a case-marking it should be pronounced as ت.

    In your examples:

    غُرفةُ تَدريسٍ : ghurfatu tadrīs

    غرفةٌ كبيرةٌ : ghurfatun kabīra

    In each case, the final word is in pause. But if not in pause, they would be ghurfatu tadrīsin and ghurfatun kabīratun respectively.

    In the case of مكة المكرمة the same rule applies, but as إسكندراني notes this is a case of وصف or adjective complementation. It's just that مكة does not get ال attached, but essentially it's the same as الغرفة الكبيرة which would be al-ghurfatu l-kabīra. In this case, it should be Makkatu l-mukarrima, Makkata l-mukarrima, or Makkati l-mukarrima depending on case.
  6. akhooha Senior Member

    English - USA
    I always thought it was المكرَّمة (al mukarrama) with fatHa. I have never seen it written nor ever heard it pronounced mukarrima, with kasra, either in dialect or in MSA. Can mukarrima possibly be correct?
  7. Schem

    Schem Senior Member

    Najdi Arabic
    It is with a fatHa (so that it's a negative construction meaning 'honored'), mukarrima would be the 'honorer' which is false.
  8. jmt356 Senior Member

    Why do you have غرفة تدريس as غُرفةُ تَدريسٍ? Doesn’t the first work in an إضافة construction take كسرة? Therefore, shouldn’t it be غُرفةِ تَدريسٍ?

    Also, when we say إضافة, do we mean only possessives that are constructed when any two words are used as one unit, such as غرفة تدريس, or do we also mean words formed through possessive endings, such as غرفته?

    I now see that in MSA, ة is always pronounced as ت because the حركات or تنوين above the ة are pronounced, but what is this exception with respect to “pause”? Do you mean when the ة precedes a comma or period?
  9. akhooha Senior Member

    English - USA
    The first part of an iDaafa takes whatever ending is appropriate for its duty in the sentence. If the غرفة is the subject, it will be غُرفةُ . If it is the object, it will be غُرفةَ . If it is the indirect object, it will be غُرفةِ.
  10. jmt356 Senior Member

    I was confused with respect to the إضافة rule. I believe it is the SECOND word rather than the first word that must always be in the genitive, taking a كسرة or كسرة تنوين:
    غرفةُ تدريسٍ(a classroom [a room of a class] in the nominative)
    غرفةُ التدريسِ(the classroom [the room of the class] in the nominative)
  11. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Just for the record: مكة is a diptote . Thus, you need to say:
    Nominative makkatu l-mukarramatu
    Genitive makkata l-mukarramati
    Accusative makkata l-mukarramata
    “makkati” in wrong.
    And of course it is mukarrama, not “mukarrima”.

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