How can we produce the alveolo-palatal fricatives?

Jonlitaliano

Banned
Portoghese
Just to avoid confusion, in the title I refer to the fricatives labelled as alveolo-palatal in the IPA chart.

Now, this is what happens. My textbook uses three names to refer to these sounds, and since tecnically they also denote different gestures, we should have three equally different pronunciations but all online recordings I checked sounded essentially the same. The names I speak of are: laminal prepalatal, dorso prepalatal and postalveolar palatalized. I'm unsure as to what to do with my tongue and would appreciate any help.
 
  • Lorenc

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Just to avoid confusion, in the title I refer to the fricatives labelled as alveolo-palatal in the IPA chart.
    Which IPA chart are you referring to? There are no "alveolo-palatal" fricatives in the official IPA chart , only alveolar or Palatal. Same for the IPA chart for Polish , at least the one on wikipedia.

    Now, this is what happens. My textbook uses three names to refer to these sounds,
    What textbook is it?

    and since tecnically they also denote different gestures,
    They denote different places of articulation.

    we should have three equally different pronunciations but all online recordings I checked sounded essentially the same. The names I speak of are: laminal prepalatal, dorso prepalatal and postalveolar palatalized. I'm unsure as to what to do with my tongue and would appreciate any help.
    What recordings have you been listening too? How does anything you wrote relate to Polish?
     

    Jonlitaliano

    Banned
    Portoghese
    Which IPA chart are you referring to? There are no "alveolo-palatal" fricatives in the official IPA chart , only alveolar or Palatal. Same for the IPA chart for Polish , at least the one on wikipedia
    I'm sorry, but I've found the alveolo-palatal fricatives in both pages you linked. Try looking at this page instead, it's much more clear: Interactive IPA Chart

    What textbook is it?
    A Practical Introduction to Phonetics by J. C. Catford

    What recordings have you been listening too?
    The ones present at the website I just linked.

    How does anything you wrote relate to Polish?
    Polish is one of the languages where extensive use of these fricatives is noted.
     

    Awwal12

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Now, this is what happens. My textbook uses three names to refer to these sounds, and since tecnically they also denote different gestures, we should have three equally different pronunciations but all online recordings I checked sounded essentially the same.
    1) Sounds with different manner of articulation (like dorsal vs. apical) but the same place of articulation may have nearly identical sounding. However, they are hardly ever opposed in a single language.
    2) Sometimes the identical articulations are described in different manner (since there is always uncertainty about some terms and many descriptions are simply overlapping). Say, there is NO difference between the alveolo-palatal nazal and the palatalized laminal alveolar nazal (I mean, it's the very same articulation in the first place).
    3) Generally I'd require more context as far as we speak about Polish.
     

    Jonlitaliano

    Banned
    Portoghese
    2) Sometimes the identical articulations are described in different manner (since there is always uncertainty about some terms and many descriptions are simply overlapping). Say, there is NO difference between the alveolo-palatal nazal and the palatalized laminal alveolar nazal (I mean, it's the very same articulation in the first place).
    You mean laminal alveolar or postalveolar? In any case, the sounds differ greatly as we alternate the gestures. Also, It would be very strange for the author to be using these terms so anomalous when he in many occasions condemn this exact attitude when done by others.
     

    Poland91pl

    Senior Member
    Polish
    Just to avoid confusion, in the title I refer to the fricatives labelled as alveolo-palatal in the IPA chart.

    Now, this is what happens. My textbook uses three names to refer to these sounds, and since tecnically they also denote different gestures, we should have three equally different pronunciations but all online recordings I checked sounded essentially the same. The names I speak of are: laminal prepalatal, dorso prepalatal and postalveolar palatalized. I'm unsure as to what to do with my tongue and would appreciate any help.
    Does the book say which letter those terms represent or symbols?
     

    Poland91pl

    Senior Member
    Polish
    If this is what you're talking about then here we go;
    All the sounds ś ź ć dź are similar in articulation. When I say ś( or voiced ź) the air flows between my tongue and my palate so I don't push my tongue to the palate but just slightly touch it. A tongue is relaxed
    On the other hand when I articulate ć (or its voiced equivalent dź I have the same place of articulation as ś but I push my tongue to the palate and the air flow stops and the sound is pronounced.
     
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