How similar are really Czech and Slovak?

  • jasio

    Senior Member
    I'd like to add for Olaszinhok that -t- in te and jste/ste (i.e. before the vowel e) are pronounced a bit differently in Slovak and in Czech. In Slovak it is "softer", something like in tuesday or the Hungarian ty.
    And they are cognates to the Polish macie, jesteście, the 2pl past tense suffix -(li/ły)ście and 2pl present tense suffix -cie respectively, which despite the spelling are even more soft.

    Yes, it is. Further more, the 2nd pers. pl. ending -те in Russian is identical to the Slovak 2nd pers. pl. ending -te.
    Which is kind of interesting, because Ukrainians pronounce these suffixes hard as far as I can remember. At least in the standard language, I don't know about the local dialects.
    And Ukraine is somewhat closer to Slovakia than Russia.
     

    jasio

    Senior Member
    Let me give you my not native perspective, despite its drawbacks. However, my perspective of the speaker of the third major west slavic language (there are also a few minor languages in the group) may put the discussion in a context.

    For me the Slovak language sounds pretty familiar, and the level of understanding is very high - up to 80% I would say, in certain topics and short texts even 100% - at least if you get used to certain systematic shifts in the pronunciation and spelling as well as archaic vocabulary and certain random shifts in the meaning. Yet it requires far more attention than Polish and the reading is much slower.

    Besides, when returning from abroad, I have always had a strange, yet pleasant feeling that I'm already back at home. I've never had this feeling in the Czech Republic.

    I have also had a number of situations of bilingual conversations with the Slovaks. If you speak slowly and mind the false friends it's not really a problem.

    And yes, I've seen a movie in the Czech language (dubbed actually) with Slovak subtitles - it was look who's talking in early 90s.

    Having said that, I would add two things.
    1. I've read somewhere that Slovak sounds most familiar to most native slavic speakers, perhaps because of its central position and quite archaic or conservative structures and vocabulary.
    2. MI is not the best criteria and can be in fact very misleading. There are Polish rural dialects or idiolects which sound Chinese to me - and the standard Slovak does not.
    3. The dialect vs language issue is political per se, especially if you consider a North-Slavic dialectal continuum spanning from Sorbian to Russian and from Kashubian to Czech and Slovak. North German dialects are closer to Dutch (MI) and South German - to the Schweizerdeutsch than to the standard German. Yet they are considered German dialects, not Dutch or Alemanic. Alike, quite dissimilar Italian etnolects are considered dialects rather than languages for political reasons, though they are not MI. The same goes for Chinese and many other locations globally.
     
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    vianie

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    1. Before the creation of the standard Slovak langage in the 19th century, the Czech language (the so called “biblical Czech”) was used among Slovaks as kind of “literal” or written language, especially - but not exclusively - for religious purposes (Bible, religious texts, etc.).
    This deserves an external link to see the consequences - Biblical Czech, based on the Bible of Kralice

    Which is kind of interesting, because Ukrainians pronounce these suffixes hard as far as I can remember. At least in the standard language, I don't know about the local dialects.
    And Ukraine is somewhat closer to Slovakia than Russia.
    There dialects in the West of Slovakia that too pronounce them hard. Especially the Trnava region (21a) is known for this.

    Slovak Rusyns (31), on the other side of Slovakia, have a harder-than-standard pronunciation as well.
     
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    pastet89

    Senior Member
    bulgarian
    It should be pointed out that Czech Republic/Slovakia's got talent TV show (Česko Slovensko má talent) is currently emitted in a mixed environment - the competition is organized for both countries and the hosts are mixed, from both nations. Everyone of them speaks their language and everything goes as fluent as smooth as possible.

    Maybe recently the common cultural media has started to join forces again and the mixed exposure is starting to get common in both countries? Because even the most common question the hosts ask: What's your name - Ako sa volaš/Jak se jmenuješ, is different, but everyone seems to understand it.

    Last time I was in Slovakia, 30% of the movies in the cinema were in Czech - included a dubbed one, and in all bookstores, maybe at least the same number was valid for the books. So there the picture is clear, but I am wondering if recently also in Czech Republic the young generation is restarting their Slovak exposure and mutual communication.
     

    bibax

    Senior Member
    Czech (Prague)
    Because even the most common question the hosts ask: What's your name - Ako sa volaš/Jak se jmenuješ, is different, but everyone seems to understand it.
    Not too apposite example, both verbs exist in both languages: jmenovat (commonly pronounced menovat) ~ menovať, volat ~ volať.

    In Slovak "Ako sa menuješ?" is possible: „Ako sa menuješ a odkiaľ si?“ „Dorota Polóny z Osrblia“
    In Czech "Jak se voláš?" is rare but understandable: „A jak se voláš příjmením?" „Já?" odtušila Klára táhle tichým hlasem, „no — Němečkova . . ."

    Český úryvek je ovšem hodně starý, od Gabriely Preissové, povídka Králuša (slovácké a slovenské období autorčiny tvorby).
     
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    Encolpius

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    As for prosody, like chalk and cheese.
    But the Czech prosody is extremely difficult to "imitate", now I can remember only 1 young Croatian lady whom I had thought about she was native, Slovak prosody reminds me of Hungarian prosody. But so far I was not able to find any academic text about those differences.
     
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    sonncz

    New Member
    Czech
    It should be pointed out that Czech Republic/Slovakia's got talent TV show (Česko Slovensko má talent) is currently emitted in a mixed environment - the competition is organized for both countries and the hosts are mixed, from both nations. Everyone of them speaks their language and everything goes as fluent as smooth as possible.

    Maybe recently the common cultural media has started to join forces again and the mixed exposure is starting to get common in both countries? Because even the most common question the hosts ask: What's your name - Ako sa volaš/Jak se jmenuješ, is different, but everyone seems to understand it.

    Last time I was in Slovakia, 30% of the movies in the cinema were in Czech - included a dubbed one, and in all bookstores, maybe at least the same number was valid for the books. So there the picture is clear, but I am wondering if recently also in Czech Republic the young generation is restarting their Slovak exposure and mutual communication.

    These common Czecho-Slovak TV shows started already in 2009 with Czecho-Slovak Idol singing competition.
    6 seasons of this show already aired and another one is planned for next year. Same with several seasons of other shows like Got Talent that you mentioned, The Voice, X Factor, MasterChef etc.

    The thing is that exposure to Slovak has increased dramatically with these shows and with the rise of the internet.
    Young Czechs follow Slovak social media influencers, watch Slovak Youtubers and listen to Slovak music, especially hip hop.
    They've had more exposure to Slovak language in the last 11 years than I had growing up in the 90s. Actually I had no exposure to Slovak back then as there was no Slovak on TV and internet was not widespread.
    That's why I find it funny when someone still says that young Czechs lose contact with Slovak and don't understand it as much as before.
    It's simply not true, quite the contrary.
     

    Mister Draken

    Senior Member
    Castellano (Argentina)
    No, that's not true, all varieties of Spanish are perfectly mutually intelligible, only in a slang-packed conversation or in a noisy atmosphere I could comprehend it if speakers had some problems understanding each other.

    Thank you for this comment. I have been perusing through this thread and every statement about the intelligibility between Spanish from Spain and Latinamerican Spanish was utterly wrong. I wonder where that misunderstanding has come from.
     
    It has been an interesting read, which made me think about the following question. I once read somewhere (unfortunately, cannot find it now) that Czech and Slovak are two languages (out of not so many pairs) which have a special property (or trait) that they can be used at the same time in a fluent conversation. In other words, if two persons meet and they know both languages, but prefer to speak the different one from the other, they can have a conversation while using both languages without difficulties.

    I assume this is not exactly a special case of mutual intelligibility, because in MI the assumption is, how much someone, with one language experience, can understand the other. Here however, the situation is different in that both speakers know both languages and just feel comfortable about using them both at the same time. What (I speculate) this tries to express is the fact that the mental model related to the language one speaks, is so close for Czech and Slovak that switching between them does not pose a problem. This is different from the situation when people speak for example both English and French, they will prefer to switch into one, because the mental models for both languages are fundamentally different. Examples being married couples one Slovak, one Czech, where each one still speaks the native language.

    I wonder if the other examples mentioned in the discussion here: Catalan-Valencian-Spanish, Serbian-Croatian, etc. behave the same?
     

    pastet89

    Senior Member
    bulgarian
    I wonder if the other examples mentioned in the discussion here: Catalan-Valencian-Spanish, Serbian-Croatian, etc. behave the same?

    Spanish is quite different from Catalan/Valencian.
    Their similarity is not comparable to what we discussed here . In oral conversation, the MI between Catalan and Spanish can be as low as 50%, the pair in question was Catalan/Valencian.
     
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    Spanish is quite different from Catalan/Valencian.
    Their similarity is not comparable to what we discussed here . In oral conversation, the MI between Catalan and Spanish can be as low as 50%, the pair in question was Catalan/Valencian.
    Catalan and Valencian are two varieties of the same language, there are very few differences in grammar and vocabulary while the pronunciation can diverge a bit more significantly. As for Spanish and Catalan, it is true that these two languages are not mutually intelligible except to some extent, but Catalan has been highly influenced by Castilian over the centuries in terms of grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation and particularly syntax. I don't actually know whether Czech may have had such an influence over Slovach in the past. However, I daresay that the differences between Catalan and Castilian are still much more numerous than the ones between Czech and Slovach.
     

    pastet89

    Senior Member
    bulgarian
    Regarding Serbian and Croatian, you can switch between any of them in anytime, to any extent, in any context and there will be no problem for the other side to understand. Just from time to time (quite rarely) they may have to ask for some word. I'd say MI in daily life is close to 99-100%. In the literature language it could be a bit harder, but I cannot imagine it dropping below 95% even there.
     

    DarkChild

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    • they are WAY, WAY more similar than Macedonian and Bulgarian, for which there is quite ongoing debate if are separate languages or not
    So, provided that I can assure you that a Bulgarian can not watch a Macedonian movie or read a Macedonian book without some significant troubles, could you please tell me:
    What? Czech and Slovak are in no way more similar than Bulgarian and Macedonian. The basic difficulty comes from Serbian vocabulary that was artificially placed into the new standardized language in Macedonia. Remove that and with some exposure (which Bulgarians get none of) and you have no troubles at all.
    Czech and Slovak have been the same country for 60 years and the mutual exposure continues until today. But they are not the same language.
     

    pastet89

    Senior Member
    bulgarian
    What? Czech and Slovak are in no way more similar than Bulgarian and Macedonian. The basic difficulty comes from Serbian vocabulary that was artificially placed into the new standardized language in Macedonia. Remove that and with some exposure (which Bulgarians get none of) and you have no troubles at all.
    Czech and Slovak have been the same country for 60 years and the mutual exposure continues until today. But they are not the same language.

    I disagree. Linguistic studies have compared pairs of different languages and have established the lexical similarity, the one between Czech and Slovak is estimated to be between 90 to 95%, while the one between Bulgarian and Macedonian is around 85%. Even without digging into such details, with my basic knowledge of Macedonian, Czech and Slovak, I can confirm that these numbers feel correct. And with my advanced knowledge of Serbo-Croatian I can definitely claim that in terms of similarity the CZ/SK pair looks much more than SR/HR pair than the Bulgarian/Macedonian pair. By the way, it is enough for someone to take any text in Bulgarian and see its Macedonian translation to see how much are the differences, then do the same with Czech and Slovak and he will come to the same conclusion.

    My Serbian is on the C1/C2 level and I am from Sofia (West Bulgaria). Even after long exposure to Macedonian, I had to concentrate a lot to follow some Macedonian series and I didn't understand everything. And for other family members this is impossible.
     

    DarkChild

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    My Serbian is on the C1/C2 level and I am from Sofia (West Bulgaria). Even after long exposure to Macedonian, I had to concentrate a lot to follow some Macedonian series and I didn't understand everything.
    Then the problem lies with you.
     
    I have always been told by some Bulgarians that Macedonian is highly or fully intelligible to them, probably that was an exaggeration, because they tend (used to tend) to consider Macedonian as a sort of Bulgarian dialect. Apparently, even Spanish and Portuguese have a higher lexical similarity, around 89%. The Portuguese generally claim to understand Spanish pretty well, while it seems to be more complicated the other way round, due to the complexity of some Portuguese phonemes.
     
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    pastet89

    Senior Member
    bulgarian
    I have always been told by some Bulgarians that Macedonian is highly or fully intelligible to them, probably that was an exaggeration, because they tend (used to tend) to consider Macedonian as a sort of Bulgarian dialect.

    You're absolutely right. Actually, by the way, the majority of the Bulgarians when asked would claim "they understand 90% of Serbian". While this could be true for daily conversations, speaking in general and taking into account all aspects of the language, such claim can't be further from the truth, shows zero competence and can be expressed only by someone who has never even tried to read a single page from a serious Serbian literature or to watch a Serbian movie without subtitles - simply because they would give up immediately.

    To be honest, I was one of those Bulgarians exaggerating the mutual intelligibility between Bulgarian/Macedonian and Bulgarian/Serbian until the moment I started learning Serbian as my major in university and I got more familiar with Macedonian.


    Apparently, even Spanish and Portuguese have a higher lexical similarity, around 89%. The Portuguese generally claim to understand Spanish pretty well, while it seems to be more complicated the other way round, due to the complexity of Portuguese phonology.
    Indeed. I would say the written intelligibility between Macedonian and Bulgarian is comparable to the one between Spanish and Portuguese. However, the oral MI between Spanish and Portuguese is significantly lower than the BG/MK one, exactly because of the pronunciation.
     

    jasio

    Senior Member
    It has been an interesting read, which made me think about the following question. I once read somewhere (unfortunately, cannot find it now) that Czech and Slovak are two languages (out of not so many pairs) which have a special property (or trait) that they can be used at the same time in a fluent conversation. In other words, if two persons meet and they know both languages, but prefer to speak the different one from the other, they can have a conversation while using both languages without difficulties.
    You touched quite a bunch of interesting topics.

    A concept of a conversation in two languages simultaneously may or may not have anything to do with MI. If I understand correctly, the concept of MI assumes NO earlier experience with the other language, and understanding the other merely on its similarities to your own language, isn't it? But is this pre-condition even possible to be met in modern-day Czech and Slovakia - not even mentioning the older generations, grown in Czechoslovakia?

    I recall a friend of mine, whom I visited in Slovakia and who visited me in Poland back in the 90s . We had similar bi-lingual conversations, despite some minor difficulties. MI? Not necessarily. My friend had lived close enough to the border to watch the Polish TV and had quite good passive grasp of Polish. Meanwhile, I used to learn singing some Slovak and Karpatorusyn folk songs, which had vastly expanded my vocabulary. Not mentioning learning at school old Polish poems and literature, which included a whole lot of old words which later went out of use in Polish, but which were still used in Slovak. In fact, I tried to express myself in expected-to-be-Slovak, but I quickly realised that in general I was understood easier and more correctly when I spoke regular Polish than when I tried to mimic Slovak vocabulary and pronunciation.

    On the other hand, your post reminded me what I heard from my grandparents about their lives in modern Western Ukraine. They lived in a multicultural and multilingual society, and they went even one step further: they were all fluent in at least two major languages of the area (a local dialect of Polish and a local dialect of Ukrainian) and they were code switching on the fly between the languages. It was nothing unusual to include a word or a phrase from the other language just because the speaker felt that it expressed his idea better than a respective word in his own language. Or seemed to be more culturally compatible with the story. Or simply because that word "jumped in" first. I've heard about a similar phenomenon among an Italian speaking community and the Spanish speaking majority in Argentina.

    I think that this phenomenon is more about the shared cultural background than about MI alone - after all, all interested parties spoke better or worse both languages. Perhaps, it's also about structural similarities between the languages. For example when I include an English word in the Polish phrase there's often a struggle with the inflection: the English stems are often plain incompatible with the Polish inflection patterns, and the Polish grammar requires that the word is inflected. On the other hand, it's not the case with the nearby Slavic languages. If you tried to speak Polish and included a few words in Czech, in their proper forms, it could probably sound a bit peculiar - but it would fully satisfy my sense of grammar. I checked it many times with the Ukrainians living in Poland, and it just works. They attempt to speak Polish, but they often miss some words and say them - properly inflected - in Ukrainian (sometimes in Russian). And they fit beautifully.
     

    jasio

    Senior Member
    I disagree. Linguistic studies have compared pairs of different languages and have established the lexical similarity, the one between Czech and Slovak is estimated to be between 90 to 95%, while the one between Bulgarian and Macedonian is around 85%.
    Shouldn't it be taken with a grain of salt?

    As far as I can recall, lexical similarity measures consider words of common origin even if they mean something different in the respective languages. So for example Polish "miłość" (love) and Czech "milost" (grace) would do. So would the Polish "łaska" (grace) and Czech "laska" (love) - although because of the pronunciation shift it's not so obvious in the spoken language. In Slovak their pronunciation and meaning are similar to the Czech, btw. Either way, these pairs would contribute to the statistical proximity measures, but they would not contribute to the mutual intelligibility. Even worse... in some contexts they could pass unnoticed leading to misunderstandings.
     
    A concept of a conversation in two languages simultaneously may or may not have anything to do with MI. If I understand correctly, the concept of MI assumes NO earlier experience with the other language, and understanding the other merely on its similarities to your own language, isn't it? But is this pre-condition even possible to be met in modern-day Czech and Slovakia - not even mentioning the older generations, grown in Czechoslovakia?
    Actually, I believe that what I described is kind of "orthogonal" to MI. MI assumes that I know one language and then tries to quantify, how much can I understand the other (which I supposedly do not know). What I had on mind is the opposite. I know two languages fairly well (at least to the point I am comfortable about expressing myself in either) and having conversation with someone who is capable of the same. Now, while it could be possible to either agree on one language and use this during the conversation, or we can each use one different, there seems to be languages (pairs) where it is easier (or more comfortable), or maybe even necessary to switch to the same one, there are also pairs where it is not.

    On the side note, I believe for Czech-Slovak pair it is almost impossible to judge MI for a native Czech or Slovak, exactly because of the long exposure both languages and nations had among themselves. The friend of mine who is French and speaks a bit of Slovak, however confirmed to me that understanding the Czech (when he moved to Czech Rep.) was not at all given. It felt basically like a different language to him.

    I think that this phenomenon is more about the shared cultural background than about MI alone - after all, all interested parties spoke better or worse both languages. Perhaps, it's also about structural similarities between the languages.
    What I originally mentioned as "mental model" (compatible for the languages in question), is actually close to what you suggested. It means both the language structure (grammar, morphology), but also the similarity between the ideas the words express (what you call the cultural background).

    On the other hand, using a foreign word in one's language to better express one's idea is something different, because it requires that the audience is really familiar with only the particular word (and its established meaning), not necessarily the whole language, or general cultural background.
     

    Cautus

    Senior Member
    Czech
    That's why I find it funny when someone still says that young Czechs lose contact with Slovak and don't understand it as much as before.
    I must disagree. I had seen Slovak movies on a TV almost every day despite nowadays, due to I can say: "Czechs lose contact with Slovaks" compared with the past time.
    Cautus
     

    sonncz

    New Member
    Czech
    I must disagree. I had seen Slovak movies on a TV almost every day despite nowadays, due to I can say: "Czechs lose contact with Slovaks" compared with the past time.
    Cautus

    It used to be Slovak movies on TV for your generation, for today's generation it's Slovak videos on Youtube, Slovak texts on internet/social media and conversations with Slovaks on these platforms. The contact haven't disappeared, it just changed its form. On the contrary I'd say the contact with Slovaks has been increasing. I didn't have the opportunity to talk to Slovaks when growing up in the 90s, while now I communicate with Slovaks on the internet quite often.

    The friend of mine who is French and speaks a bit of Slovak, however confirmed to me that understanding the Czech (when he moved to Czech Rep.) was not at all given. It felt basically like a different language to him.

    I think that could change once he becomes more fluent in Slovak. Non-fluent foreigners have to focus more on the language and its understanding. Besides they don't have the advantage of native speakers, who know lots of synonyms or other words which might be archaic or used less in one language and not in the other.
    I have a Canadian friend who speaks Czech fluently and has no problem with understanding Slovak.
    Same with this American Youtuber learning Czech (TadyGavin - search for his video rozumím slovenštině - I'm not allowed to link videos here), his Czech is at a good level and he doesn't seem to have many issues with Slovak.
     
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    Cautus

    Senior Member
    Czech
    On the contrary I'd say the contact with Slovaks has been increasing.
    Asi záleží na člověku, jako malý jsem sledoval slovenské pohádky, protože jiná možnost nebyla. Na Youtube si slovenštinu nepustím, ani jsem se s ní nesetkal. Můj první pořádný kontakt se slovenštinou, od revoluce, když opomenu svého slovenského kolegu, je kniha Modrá a Hnedá kniha od Wittgensteina, a musím říct, že v češtině bych si ji užil víc.

    Ale zpět k dotazu. Slovenština a čeština jsou velmi podobné jazyky, i když při komunikaci o nedorozumění není nouze.
     

    Pollock3

    New Member
    Czech
    Thank you very much for your reply.

    So based on your replies I would conclude that I was right that CZ/SK difference is just a bit bigger than between Serbian and Croatian, but still way smaller than the one between Bulgarian and Macedonian.

    It is still very interesting that while Czech and Slovak are so similar, you (and also other people who answered similar questions online) are still putting into question the topic of "understanding". With Serbian and Croatian, yes, they might need to ask from time to time for certain words, but I do not think that the question of "understanding" exists at all (provided that we talk about official standards of the languages). It seems I would have to really to dig deeper into either Czech or Slovak to be able to feel the differences properly myself.

    It would be great if anyone else could share their insights as well.
    Hi, Czech and Slovak are quite similar languages. For older generation ( as I am) who lived during the time of Czechoslovak state and were watching TV in Slovak, it is not such difficult to understand, but for Czech kids of today..it might be difficult to understand some of the words.
     

    PumpJack

    New Member
    Slovak
    I knew that somebody would argue. But I didn't expect a Brasilian. :)

    The word drevokocúr (lit. wood or tree-tomcat) exists, however not in Standard Slovak. It is a calque from German Eichkatze (= lit. "oak-cat", = squirrel).
    Please stop with this "urban legend" origined in military service in 60's or 70's . There si no word like this. Please show me a book with this word.
     

    PumpJack

    New Member
    Slovak
    Asi záleží na člověku, jako malý jsem sledoval slovenské pohádky, protože jiná možnost nebyla. Na Youtube si slovenštinu nepustím, ani jsem se s ní nesetkal. Můj první pořádný kontakt se slovenštinou, od revoluce, když opomenu svého slovenského kolegu, je kniha Modrá a Hnedá kniha od Wittgensteina, a musím říct, že v češtině bych si ji užil víc.

    Ale zpět k dotazu. Slovenština a čeština jsou velmi podobné jazyky, i když při komunikaci o nedorozumění není nouze.
    Obliba slovenštiny u českých čtenářů byla proto, že slovenská nakladatelství nebyla pod tak velkou cenzurou. A tak některá díla západních autorů vyšla dříve v slovenském překladu. Steinbeck, Vonnegut ,Hailey a tak dále. Stejně zas český dabing byl rozhodně lepší než "Koliba".
    Je toho škoda, protože bilingválnost naší generace cvičila mozek. Dnes zažijete, to co já s otevřenými ústy na D1 si POláci objednávali jídlo u McD anglicky (mizernou angličtinou). V Karviné by to bylo naprosto normální, že by jim porozuměli polsky.
     

    jasio

    Senior Member
    Dnes zažijete, to co já s otevřenými ústy na D1 si POláci objednávali jídlo u McD anglicky (mizernou angličtinou). V Karviné by to bylo naprosto normální, že by jim porozuměli polsky.
    Co mi przypomina, jak wracaliśmy kiedyś z Bułgarii po kilku tygodniach wakacji - i już na węgiersko-słowackiej granicy poczułem się prawie jak w domu, bo wreszcie zacząłem rozumieć, co się mówi dookoła. Albo przynajmniej słowa i melodia języka brzmiały znajomo. ;-)
     

    vianie

    Senior Member
    Slovak
    V dobách spoločnej republiky možno bola čeština na Slovensku takpovediac povinná, ale aj po rozdelení republiky si zachovala status obľúbeného jazyka. Či už vďaka TV Nova počas prvých rokov jej vysielania, či vďaka kvalitnému českému dabingu.

    Osobne som rád, že v tejto opticko-internetovej dobe mám na výber aj z množstva českých televízií, českých rádií, či českých videí na YT. Čeština je už jednoducho súčasťou mojej identity, hoc len ako pasívny jazyk.

    Co mi przypomina, jak wracaliśmy kiedyś z Bułgarii po kilku tygodniach wakacji - i już na węgiersko-słowackiej granicy poczułem się prawie jak w domu, bo wreszcie zacząłem rozumieć, co się mówi dookoła. Albo przynajmniej słowa i melodia języka brzmiały znajomo. ;-)
    Niečo obdobné sa mi zavše stalo v Anglicku, keď som v práci či v obchode narazil na melodicky ale aj vizuálne Slovákom podobných Poliakov/Poľky. :)
     
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    PumpJack

    New Member
    Slovak
    Slovak has some Hungarian words that are not understandable for [young] Czechs. For example: ťava (Hu. teve, Cz. velbloud, Eng. camel), kefa (Hu. kefe, Cz. kartáč [of Romance origin], Eng. brush), bosorka (Hu. boszorkány, Cz. čarodějnice, Eng. witch), lopta (Hu. labda, Cz. míč, Eng. ball), mačka (Hu. macska, Cz. kočka, Eng. cat). They must be memorized. Hungarian, Czech, Slovak kabát (Eng. coat) is a common word (of Persian origin kabā).
    Toť otázka, zda je původní slovenské slovo pro kočku mačka anebo je to přejímka z maďarštiny. Vzhledem k tomu, že stovky slov týkajících se zemědělství, řemesel a domácnosti přejala maďarština od usedlých Moravanů, a je o tom dost publikací můe být vše opačně. Uvádím námatkově pro Vás potok(slk.)/patak(hu) , britva(slk)/borotva(hu) tanier(sk)/tanyér(hu) , čistá(sk)/tiszta(hu), dni v týdnu, křesťanské termíny, názvy plodin jako : raž ,čerešňa, nářadí :hrable/gereble atd.. Český etymologický slovník Jiřího Rejzka (LEDA 2001) uvádí právě u hesla kočka :hornolužicky kóčka , dolnolužicky kócka , polsky kotka, nářečově ale i koczka, rusky koška . V jihoslovanských jazycích a slovensky mačka etymologicky by byla mačka z macek - maco, macatý - "kocour" pochází z vábícího slova mac , dolnoněmecky doloženo Matz .
    Čímž nepopírám jiné přejímky. Ty lidé vedle sebe žili tak dlouho, že podobně jako česko-neměcké je i slovensko-neměcké a slovensko-maďarské působení. A dokonce i opačným směrem. Grenze / Hranice
     

    PumpJack

    New Member
    Slovak
    Co mi przypomina, jak wracaliśmy kiedyś z Bułgarii po kilku tygodniach wakacji - i już na węgiersko-słowackiej granicy poczułem się prawie jak w domu, bo wreszcie zacząłem rozumieć, co się mówi dookoła. Albo przynajmniej słowa i melodia języka brzmiały znajomo. ;-)
    Pamietam v latach 1985 jak w telewiziji POlskiej bylo Kino noczne ... i w Karwine bylyśmy bardzo śczesliwy ze jest. Pozdrawiam i przepraszam za moja nie dobra polska mówe
     

    PumpJack

    New Member
    Slovak
    Shouldn't it be taken with a grain of salt?

    As far as I can recall, lexical similarity measures consider words of common origin even if they mean something different in the respective languages. So for example Polish "miłość" (love) and Czech "milost" (grace) would do. So would the Polish "łaska" (grace) and Czech "laska" (love) - although because of the pronunciation shift it's not so obvious in the spoken language. In Slovak their pronunciation and meaning are similar to the Czech, btw. Either way, these pairs would contribute to the statistical proximity measures, but they would not contribute to the mutual intelligibility. Even worse... in some contexts they could pass unnoticed leading to misunderstandings.
    Hi, you can compare also czarstwy (pl)/ čerstvý (sk,cz) chleb/chléb/chlieb polish is czarstwy old , not good and slovak and czech "čerstvý" is fresh, good
    For fresh today prepared bread is term "swiezy" witch is to same sviežy(sk) svěžý , svěžest(cz) and other word sklep :)
     

    francisgranada

    Senior Member
    Hungarian
    Toť otázka, zda je původní slovenské slovo pro kočku mačka anebo je to přejímka z maďarštiny. Vzhledem k tomu, že stovky slov týkajících se zemědělství, řemesel a domácnosti přejala maďarština od usedlých Moravanů, a je o tom dost publikací můe být vše opačně. Uvádím námatkově pro Vás potok(slk.)/patak(hu) , britva(slk)/borotva(hu) tanier(sk)/tanyér(hu) , čistá(sk)/tiszta(hu), dni v týdnu, křesťanské termíny, názvy plodin jako : raž ,čerešňa, nářadí :hrable/gereble atd.. Český etymologický slovník Jiřího Rejzka (LEDA 2001) uvádí právě u hesla kočka :hornolužicky kóčka , dolnolužicky kócka , polsky kotka, nářečově ale i koczka, rusky koška . V jihoslovanských jazycích a slovensky mačka etymologicky by byla mačka z macek - maco, macatý - "kocour" pochází z vábícího slova mac , dolnoněmecky doloženo Matz .
    Čímž nepopírám jiné přejímky. Ty lidé vedle sebe žili tak dlouho, že podobně jako česko-neměcké je i slovensko-neměcké a slovensko-maďarské působení. A dokonce i opačným směrem. Grenze / Hranice
    Súhlasím, ten proces nebol a ani dnes nie je "lineárny" alebo "jednosmerný". Napr. v dnešnej taliančine je spústa anglických slov, ktoré sú v konečnom dôsledku románskeho (starofrancúzskeho) alebo latinského pôvodu, a cez angličtinu sa potom dostali "naspäť" do taliančiny. Pre vytvorenie celkového obrazu, treba rozlišovať etymologický pôvod slova a tzv. odovzdávajúci jazyk (z ktorého dané slovo bolo prevzaté)

    *************************
    Príklad pre ilustráciu toho, že slová niekedy majú dosť "kľukatú" históriu a nestačí robiť unáhlené závery len na báze podobnosti:

    Maďarské slovo tányér je severoitalského pôvodu, kde slová [tajér] [tajir], etc ... znamenali niečo ako "doska na krájanie mäsa, zeleniny, apod." V dnejšnej štandardnej taliančine to je tagliere, odvodené zo slovesa tagliare (< lat. taliare), čo znamená "krájať, rezať". Nemecké slovo Teller je pokračovaním staro-hornonemeckého talier, ktoré rovnako pochádza zo (severnej) Itálie.

    Vzhľadom na fonetickú podobu a na historické súvislosti, dá sa predpokladať, že české talíř a poľské talerz sú prevzaté zo staro-hornonemeckého talier (nem. Teller), kdežto sloveské tanier pochádza z maďarského tányér..
     

    jasio

    Senior Member
    Pamietam v latach 1985 jak w telewiziji POlskiej bylo Kino noczne ... i w Karwine bylyśmy bardzo śczesliwy ze jest. Pozdrawiam i przepraszam za moja nie dobra polska mówe
    :)
    Twój polski jest dużo lepszy, niż mój słowacki. Kiedyś nauczyłem się śpiewać kilka słowackich piosenek i wydawało mi się, że dam radę porozumieć się na Słowacji po słowacku.

    Cóż, wydawało mi się.... ;-)

    Zdecydowaie lepszy efekt miałem, jak mówiłem po polsku, bo przynajmniej nie używałem jakichś udziwnionych zwrotów, które mi wydawały się słowackie, ale Słowacy ich kompletnie nie rozumieli! Może dlatego, że w praktyce często to były przekręcone słowa rosyjskie, a nie słowackie. ;-) Nie mówiąc już o tym,że jak trafiłem na słowo w którym była zbitka spółgłoskowa z "r" w środku (np. čtvrtok, čtvrty, zmrzlina) musiałem się zatrzymać, wziąć oddech i zacząć od tego słowa, bo w środku zdania w żaden sposób mi to nie wychodziło.
     
    Last edited:

    jasio

    Senior Member
    Hi, you can compare also czerstwy (pl)/ čerstvý (sk,cz) chleb/chléb/chlieb polish is czerstwy old , not good and slovak and czech "čerstvý" is fresh, good
    For fresh today prepared bread is term "swiezy" witch is to same sviežy(sk) svěžý , svěžest(cz) and other word sklep :)
    Another word we encountered commonly was "jahoda", which in Slovak means "strawberry", but which sounds almost like "jagoda" which in Polish means "blackberry". We always had to remember to ask for "čučoriedková zmrzlina" (blackberry icecream) rather than for "jahodová zmrzlina" if we did not want to get strawberry icecream. ;-) Not mentioning that "zmrzlina" (icecream) itself is difficult to pronounce because of five consonants in a row., and to our ear it sounded like "zmarzlina" (permafrost) - which is quite logically connected, but still not quite the same.

    There are tons of such examples. They would pass well as a language proximity metric, but in practice they make a direct communication much more difficult.
     

    PumpJack

    New Member
    Slovak
    Súhlasím, ten proces nebol a ani dnes nie je "lineárny" alebo "jednosmerný". Napr. v dnešnej taliančine je spústa anglických slov, ktoré sú v konečnom dôsledku románskeho (starofrancúzskeho) alebo latinského pôvodu, a cez angličtinu sa potom dostali "naspäť" do taliančiny. Pre vytvorenie celkového obrazu, treba rozlišovať etymologický pôvod slova a tzv. odovzdávajúci jazyk (z ktorého dané slovo bolo prevzaté)

    *************************
    Príklad pre ilustráciu toho, že slová niekedy majú dosť "kľukatú" históriu a nestačí robiť unáhlené závery len na báze podobnosti:

    Maďarské slovo tányér je severoitalského pôvodu, kde slová [tajér] [tajir], etc ... znamenali niečo ako "doska na krájanie mäsa, zeleniny, apod." V dnejšnej štandardnej taliančine to je tagliere, odvodené zo slovesa tagliare (< lat. taliare), čo znamená "krájať, rezať". Nemecké slovo Teller je pokračovaním staro-hornonemeckého talier, ktoré rovnako pochádza zo (severnej) Itálie.

    Vzhľadom na fonetickú podobu a na historické súvislosti, dá sa predpokladať, že české talíř a poľské talerz sú prevzaté zo staro-hornonemeckého talier (nem. Teller), kdežto sloveské tanier pochádza z maďarského tányér..

    Tak táto slučka mi unikla... :) Slová a ich cesta, zdroj, povod ma zaujímajú od detstva. Viem o okruhu povodu slova gazda z staroslovenčiny do maďarčiny a naspäť do slovenčiny. Aj o tom že "írečitý" a "íver" sú z maďarského základu.
    Maďarčina dala napríklad svetu slovo koč / kocs ...angl. coach fr, coche
    A poslúžila ako transfer do slovenčiny z tureckých slov, ťava/teve/deve čižma/cizsma/cisme . Dokonca i tá bosorka a kefa sú až z tureckých či turkicých koreňov ( zdroj https://dspace.cuni.cz/bitstream/ha..._0_287503_0_111333.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
    No hlavne ,že si rozumieme..
     

    PumpJack

    New Member
    Slovak
    Another word we encountered commonly was "jahoda", which in Slovak means "strawberry", but which sounds almost like "jagoda" which in Polish means "blackberry". We always had to remember to ask for "čučoriedková zmrzlina" (blackberry icecream) rather than for "jahodová zmrzlina" if we did not want to get strawberry icecream. ;-) Not mentioning that "zmrzlina" (icecream) itself is difficult to pronounce because of five consonants in a row., and to our ear it sounded like "zmarzlina" (permafrost) - which is quite logically connected, but still not quite the same.

    There are tons of such examples. They would pass well as a language proximity metric, but in practice they make a direct communication much more difficult.
    And imagine polish car on czech highway with "pomoc drogowa" :)
     

    marco_2

    Senior Member
    Polish
    Berry sorry to be pedantic, but čučoriedková zmrzlina - blueberry; černicová zmrzlina - blackberry. My favourite, vanilková / waniliowe, is unlikely to lead to any confusion. ;)
    Being even more pedantic, I would say that čučoriedka, which you can find in our icecream, is 'bilberry' (Vaccinum mertillus L.) - in Polish 'czarna jagoda' or 'borówka czarna'. A blueberry (Vaccinum corymbosum L.) is 'borówka amerykańska' which became very popular in this part of Europe and is comercially grown, but it tastes different and is not native here - it comes from North America.
     

    studencik

    New Member
    Polish
    Sadly, we have no written records of Slovak before its "bohemization". I read somewhere that there were pre-war plans to create a union between Poland and Slovakia (some Slovaks weren't favorable of Czechs and considered Poles as closer people) and Polish supposed to greatly influence Slovak literary language thus making it even more similar to Polish, but unfortunately Czechs had much bigger influence in Slovakia.
     

    bigic

    Member
    Serbian (Serbia, Ekavian)
    I found an interesting paper (in Serbian) about the life of Vojvodina (Serbia) Slovaks who migrated to Slovakia. There is a sentence about the Czech language:
    На поменуте тешкоће са стандардним словачким језиком, надовезују се и други изазови – знање чешког језика, веома заступљеног у литератури на студијама, у медијима и сл. За војвођанске Словаке је чешки језик веома далек (For Vojvodina Slovaks, the Czech language is very distant), па се они који студирају довијају на различите начине (траже превод на српски и сл.), док они који у каснијим годинама долазе због посла често не могу да га савладају ни на нивоу пасивног разумевања. (often can't even passively understand the Czech language)

    To be fair, in the paper it's also mentioned that the dialect of Vojvodina Slovaks is "different from the standard, more archaic, and with many dialectisms and Serbisms"
    Словачки језик којим они говоре разликује се од стандарда; архаичнији је, са много дијалектизама и србизама.
    Код појединих саговорника, који су у Словачкој стекли универзитетско образовање и где живе већ две деценије, и даље је био приметан утицај српског у конструкцији реченице.
     
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