How would the Pamphilj family pronounce its last name?

Discussion in 'Italian-English' started by Bagnoregio, Sep 26, 2006.

  1. Bagnoregio New Member

    English (Canadian)
    I am having difficulty finding the Italian pronunciation of the letter 'j' in the word Pamphilj (Villa Doria Pamphilj).

    I have heard it pronounced as if it were spelled pamfiglia, as in famiglia.

    However, because the j in this word is sometimes interchanged with the letter i, it makes more sense to me that it would be pronounced as if it were spelled pamfili. If this is correct, would the emphasis be pam'-fili or would it be pamfi'-li?

    Does anyone have the definite answer, as spoken by a native resident of Roma?
     
  2. Alberto77 Senior Member

    Italian - Italy
    The letter j is usually pronunced as i, in the case of Villa Pamphilj surely, and the accent goes on second to last vowel, i, so pamfi'li. It is a surname. Pan'fili, the word more close to the previous one, is the plural of panfilo, the kind of boat.
    ciao
    alb
     
  3. Gioppino

    Gioppino Senior Member

    Milano
    Italiano

    "J" is pronounced like "I".
     
  4. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    Like "i" in this case, but there are other "j" pronunciations (I'm thinking of Jolly Hotel and la pajata dell'intestino di bue, to name two).
     
  5. Hockey13

    Hockey13 Senior Member

    Los Angeles, California
    AmEnglish/German
    I think the J when it's brought in from English is pronounced like the J in English.
     
  6. Akire72

    Akire72 Senior Member

    Florence, Italy
    Italian - Italy
    In this case it is likely to replace a final double "i" (transcription in modern italian would be Panfilii (the M is COMPULSORY before a P while it is not before an F and actually it becomes hard to pronounce -MF-)
     
  7. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    I agree with Akire, in former times "ii->j" (see this post), nowadays is 'Panfili'.
     
  8. Hockey13

    Hockey13 Senior Member

    Los Angeles, California
    AmEnglish/German
    Hence the name, "I lunga," I suppose.
     
  9. Akire72

    Akire72 Senior Member

    Florence, Italy
    Italian - Italy
    J is called "i lunga", "iota" or "gei" it is rather complicated because it is NOT an Italian "sign" it is imported either from Latin, from Greek and more recently from English. So it basically depends on the word. For example I have seen yogurt written "joghurt" or "jogurt". It actually is a semivowel (at least in this case) which has a pronunciation between "i" and "gli"

    I lunga: long can mean two things, 1. that is a long "i" (pronunciation); 2. graphically long for its "tail"
     
  10. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    Hmm... I'm afraid that is not the reason, I think that in this case 'lunga' (long) is used to mean 'alta' (tall), as explained here (site of University of Cassino):

    Esistono due forme, ciascuna con il suo specifico uso:
    (a) la i lunga, la forma alta di i, usata in posizione iniziale e all’interno di una parola quando ha suono semivocalico.
    (b) la forma corta di i, usata in tutti gli altri casi.
     
  11. Akire72

    Akire72 Senior Member

    Florence, Italy
    Italian - Italy
    Nescus non riesco a vedere il passo relativo alla j nel tuo link. Per favore lo potresti evidenziare e riportare in un post? Grazie! :)
     
  12. Akire72

    Akire72 Senior Member

    Florence, Italy
    Italian - Italy
    I've found this on Wikipedia:

    La storia

    La lettera J è l'ultima lettera ad essere stata aggiunta all'alfabeto latino, e fu posizionata dopo la I di cui costituisce una variante. Per la storia di questa due lettere, vedi la relativa voce; fu Petrus Ramus nel 1572 a distinguere per primo tali grafemi come rappresentanti suoni diversi: prima le due lettere, vocalica e semi-consonantica, e [j] erano usate indistintamente, ma alcune lingue derivarono una pronuncia diversa per la J (per esempio in francese e da questi in inglese).
    In italiano solo parole straniere o latinismi conservano la J: fino al XIX secolo essa poteva essere usata al posto di I nei dittonghi, per indicare una i geminata finale (-ii), o nei gruppi di più vocali (come nella parola Savoja). Essa viene ancora usata, infine, per rendere il suono [j] che in alcuni dialetti sostituisce la -gl- dell'italiano standard (come nel romanesco ajo per aglio).
     
  13. Necsus

    Necsus Senior Member

    Formello (Rome)
    Italian (Italy)
    E hai ragione, non potevi trovarlo perché il collegamento è sbagliato..! :eek: Quello giusto è questo, si riferisce alla lingua nel beneventano, ma parla dei due tipi di "i". Comunque il passo in questione è quello che avevo già riportato condensato nel post (la regola delle 4 righe...).
    Ma mi sembra che quanto hai trovato in Wikipedia sia più che esauriente... :)
     
  14. Bagnoregio New Member

    English (Canadian)
    Thank you to those who have given their input. Unfortunately, we still have differing opinions. I have been told:
    1. "J" is pronounced like "I".
    2. The letter j is usually pronunced as i, in the case of Villa Pamphilj surely, and the accent goes on second to last vowel, i, so pamfi'li.
    3. After an L, the J is pronounced as a palatal glide, as in pamfiglia. This, from a Professor of the Italian language.
    4. My Italian friend, Giorgio, who doesn't know why, but just knows (?) it is pronounced pamfiglia.
    Does anyone have any more ideas/reasons/proof on the topic?
     
  15. Trina

    Trina Senior Member

    Sydney
    Australia (English)
    I have noticed "j" is used in Friule (dialect from around Venice)
    Gjoldi fin ch'a' si po'! (roughly translates to Enjoy (life) for as long as you can)
    Perhaps "Pamphilj" is left over from another dialect
     
  16. PTK Senior Member

    IT/VN
    Actually, "pajata" is pronounced "paiata", with a semivocalic "i", as "jella" (bad luck), "jena" ("iena" of nowadays), "Jugoslavia", or "ieri", "Ionio", "maiale" ecc.

    It should be said that "j" in Italian words may be always converted in a simple "i"...
     
  17. Bagnoregio New Member

    English (Canadian)
    Thank you for your help.
    It would appear we are down to two possibilities:
    1. Pamfi'li (in English, Pamfee'lee)
    2. Panfi'li (in English, Panfee'lee)
    It seems no one is supporting the person who says it is pronounced Pamfiglia (in English, Pamfee'lya).?
     
  18. PTK Senior Member

    IT/VN
    The most common pronounciation is definitely "panfili". The stress hits on the "fi". The "m" of "PaMphilij" is there just because of the following "p", that can't hang on a "n". But, since the "p" is actually part of a "ph" phoneme which exactly sounds like "f", the "m" could be turned to a "n" in the pronounciation.
    Such a mess only because of the Greek origin of the name. Greek "f" sound being slightly different from Latin one, old people used to write it "ph" to distinguish the two sounds. So the Greek-ish pronounciation would be "paMfili", and the Latin/Italian one "paNfili".
    Hope it is clear enough.
     

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