Hypothetical Gothic language constructions

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killerbee256

Senior Member
American English
I need some feedback with some hypothetical Gothic translations. The game my language project is based on is getting a update soon which is adding Crimean Goths. There is scant evidence for the language of the Crimean Goths. What little there is suggests that old Gothic was still used for writing during the 9th and 10th century.
Based on that I constructed some Gothic titles based on German feudal titles. "Viceroy" and "Tribal" are references to way the game uses the terms.
Kaisar - Emperor
Kuniggs - King
Harjitiuho - Duke
Grefijo/Erlis - Count
Þegnis - Baron

Kaisareins - Female Emperor
Kuniggseins - Female King
Harjitiuhoeins - Female Duke
Grefijoeins/Erliseins - Female Count
Þegniseins - Female Baron

Gráutareis Undarkuniggs - Viceroy Emperor
Undarkuniggs - Viceroy King
Leitils Undarkuniggs - Viceroy Duke

Gráutareis Undarkuniggseins - Female Viceroy Emperor
Undarkuniggseins - Female Viceroy King
Leitils Undarkuniggseins - Viceroy Duke

Hauhs Haubiþliggs - Tribal Duke
Haubiþliggs - Tribal Count

Hauha Haubiþliggseins - Female Tribal Duke
Haubiþliggseins - Female Tribal Count

Fauristis - Prince
Fauristiseins - Princess
Kuniggs is obviously king. It's funny that a word this common wasn't preserved.
Harjitiuho is based off German/Dutch Herzog/Hertog
Grefijo
is based off German Graf. I've not sure if the e should become an i so perhaps it should be Grifijo.
Þegnis is based off Old English Þegen.
Fauristis is based off German Fürst.

For "Viceroy duke" I used Leitils "little" because I could not find a Gothic or Proto-Germanic cognate to German minder which what the German localization uses.

Hailag Romisks Reikeis - Holy Roman Empire
Þiudisksland - Germany(Deutschland)
Aggwusland - England
Scandauja - Scandinavia
Baurgsand - Burgundy
Danismarka - Danmark
swihoreiki - Sweden
Nurþriwigs - Norway
Freisisland - Frisia
Bajowarjan - Bavaria
Sweban - Swabia
Sahsen - Saxony
My attempt at some empire and kingdom names.
 
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  • ahvalj

    Senior Member
    Which century language is it expected to be? I guess the end of the 1st millennium? Gothic was rapidly evolving at the time when it was attested, and Crimean Gothic of the feudal times was certainly much more modernized than Wulfila's language.

    In particular, the final -s in the Nominative Singular is already absent in the 6th century Ostrogothic in Italy (Ruderic, Gudilub, Uftahari), the same in contemporary Vandalian in Africa (Gunthamund, Witarith, Fridamal, Geilamir, except for names in -rix). In 16th century Crimean Gothic -s seems to be retained in some words: wintsch "wind", stats "country" and lost in others stul "chair", tag "day", alt "old".

    The long e and o evolve towards i and u in the 6th century: Walamir, Theodemir, Sinderith, Ebremuth, Alamud, Dumilda, Butila, Ruderic (Ostrogothic), Geilamir, Gamuth, Blumarith (Vandalian), Ginderith (Gepidian), Filimuth (Erulian). In Crimean Gothic it has occurred as well: mina "moon", schlipen "sleep", bruder "brother", plut "blood", stul "chair".

    Wulfila's short i and u were rather open and were often written with e and o in the Latin script: Geberic~Ghiberic, Sigisvultus~Segisvuldus, Tolwin~Tulwin, Amalaswintha~Amalaswentha, Mateswintha~Mateswentha (Ostrogothic), Heldica~Hildica, Stelico~Stilico (Vandalian), Segismundus~Sigismundus (Burgundian). In Crimean Gothic the distribution seems to follow the North/West Germanic pattern with e/i and o/u distributed depending on the openness of the following vowel (which often may have been dropped): stern "star", reghen "rain" vs. siluir "silver", fisct "fish"; boga "arch", goltz "gold", kor "corn" vs. thur "door"; and only i and u precede the nasals: rinck "ring", wintsch "wind", singhen "sing", sune "sun", brunna "spring, fountain".

    The diphthongs were most probably already monophthongized in Wulfila's language (cp. Staifanus, Faurtunatus, Beþlaihaim, praufetus, Þaissalauneika) and were certainly so in the later languages: Ostrogothi, Gesimund, Gesila, Odwin, Oswin, Goda (Ostrogothic), Gelimer~Geilamir, Godigisclus, Godagis (Vandalian). In 16th century Crimean Gothic we find ie (long i): iel "hail", ieltsch "healthy" and oe (long u): broe "bread", hoef "head", oeghene "eyes".​

    Also, do we have any evidence of a West European type feudal system in the Crimea? I guess the Gothic social organization rather followed that of their Greek and Turkic neighbors. In particular, as a nation they seem to have been very quiet and in permanent decline, with no military leaders of any significance attested in the foreign sources during the more than a millennium-long history of Goths on the peninsula.

    The Gothic word *kuniggs, though unattested, was borrowed into Slavic as *kuningə, which produced the Old Church Slavonic (10th century) кънѧѕь/kъnęʣь "prince", кънѧгыни/kъnęgyni "princess".
     

    killerbee256

    Senior Member
    American English
    Thank you very much, it is very difficult find this information on the net. I will make adjustments to my constructions.
    Also, do we have any evidence of a West European type feudal system in the Crimea? I guess the Gothic social organization rather followed that of their Greek and Turkic neighbors. In particular, as a nation they seem to have been very quiet and in permanent decline, with no military leaders of any significance attested in the foreign sources during the more than a millennium-long history of Goths on the peninsula.
    Simply put no. However the game I'm created these for, Crusader Kings 2, is at heart a feudalism simulator so I need something to replace the English terms emperor, king, duke, count and baron with. Given the lack of data I think basing the replacements on closely related languages is the best choice. The earliest start date of the game is in the 8th century, so that is the time period I'm aiming for. The game itself is a "sandbox" where anything may happen, particularly if the player wants it to.

    I need some clarification, based off the loan into Slavic *kuningə should -iggs be -ing? Should the au be reduced to oe as in Crimean Gothic? So *foerist, baurgs becomes *boerg? If I drop the final s words like *Reikeis, *Gráutareis, *Þegnis do I drop the i as well? So *Rike, *Gráutare, *Þegn. Is the áu in Gráutare a diphthong? Should it be reduced o or u? J should folded into the near by vowel? I drop the -rą from cardinal directions, so *nurþ, *sunþ, *oest and *west?

    Here are my revisions:
    Kesar - Emperor
    Kuning - King
    Haritiuho - Duke
    Grifio/Erl - Count
    Þegn - Baron

    Kesarin - Female Emperor
    Kuningin - Female King
    Haritiuhoin - Female Duke
    Grifioin/Erlin - Female Count
    Þegnin - Female Baron

    Grotare Undarkuning - Viceroy Emperor
    Undarkuning - Viceroy King
    Litil Undarkuning - Viceroy Duke

    Grotare Undarkuningin - Female Viceroy Emperor
    Undarkuningin - Female Viceroy King
    Litil Undarkuningin - Viceroy Duke

    Hoh Hobiþling - Tribal Duke
    Hobiþling - Tribal Count

    Hoha Hobiþlingin - Female Tribal Duke
    Hobiþlingin - Female Tribal Count

    Forist - Prince
    Foristin - Princess

    Helag Romisk Rike - Holy Roman Empire
    Þiudiskland - Germany(Deutschland)
    Angululand - England
    Scandaua - Scandinavia
    Baurgand - Burgundy
    Danimarka - Danmark
    Swihorike - Sweden
    Nurþwig - Norway
    Frisland - Frisia
    West Frisland - West Frisia
    Ost Frisland - East Frisia
    Baiowaran - Bavaria(Bayern)
    Sweban - Swabia
    Sahsen - Saxony
    Sunþsahsane - Sussex(Suþseaxe)
    Westsahsane - Wessex(Westseaxna)
    Ostsahsane - Essex(Eastseaxe)
    Midlsahsans - Middlesex(Middleseaxan)
    Ost Angulans - East Anglia(East Engla)
    Iutaland - Jutland
    With the changes applied many of the words resemble their cognates in old high German. Is it likely that Gothic speakers in Northern Italy may have been influenced by Old High German?
     
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    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    The Gothic ai and au occur in five cases:
    • when transliterating foreign e and o (Staifanus, Faurtunatus, Beþlaihaim, praufetus, Þaissalauneika from my post; also Aileisabaiþ, apaustaulus, Pauntius; cp. the doublets Beþsaeida~Baiþsaida-, praitoria~praitauria)
    • before r, h and ƕ instead of i~e and u~o of other languages (bairan, baurgs), as well as in several other words (waila "well")
    • in the reduplication syllable (haihald, saislep, lailot)
    • when other languages have diphthongs ai and au or their outcomes
    • in some words before vowels (saian, sauil).
    For the first three cases there is agreement that ai stood for an open e and au for an open o (short or long depending on etymology). For the fourth case some people believe ai and au were still diphthongs at Wulfila's times, other prefer to regard them as monophthongs standing for the long open e and o. The fifth case is ambiguous. Anyway, Latin transliterations seem to testify that all ai and au had become e and o by the 6–7th centuries. It is hard to tell when the long ai>e and au>o became i and u in Crimean Gothic: judging from the West Germanic languages, most probably sometime in the first half of the 2nd millennium, so in your period they probably were still e and o.

    Gg in Gothic, following the Greek orthography, in most cases (i. e. except boundaries of compounds) meant ng, so **kuniggs stood for **kunings.

    I'd suggest the following transformations of Wulfila's sounds:
    • e>i and o>u (as it had occurred to the 6–7th centuries anyway)
    • ai>e and au>o (regardless, short or long)
    • ei is just a Greek-influenced way to express the long i, it wasn't a diphthong in the Gothic Bible, so ei→i
    • i>i~e and u>u~o depending on the next vowel: practically, follow the West Germanic pattern (ring, fisk, sunno but berg, regn, golth)
    • iu: there are no clues; judging by other languages, it first split into iu and io and then each variant developed separately
    • leave consonants as they are, since there is too much room for speculation, plus Wulfila's Gothic and Crimean Gothic were not identical in this respect, cp. Wulfila's broþar vs. the Crimean bruder.
    I will try to check the literature and comment your word lists in the following days.
     
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    killerbee256

    Senior Member
    American English
    I will try to check the literature and comment your word lists in the following days.
    Thank you, I've updated my word list to incorporate the information you've posted.
    I can no longer edit my old post, so here is my updated word list:
    Kesar - Emperor
    Kuning - King
    Haritiuho - Duke
    Grifio/Erl - Count
    Þegn - Baron

    Kesarin - Female Emperor
    Kuningin - Female King
    Haritiuhoin - Female Duke
    Grifioin/Erlin - Female Count
    Þegnin - Female Baron

    Grotare Undarkuning - Viceroy Emperor
    Undarkuning - Viceroy King
    Lutil Undarkuning - Viceroy Duke

    Grotare Undarkuningin - Female Viceroy Emperor
    Undarkuningin - Female Viceroy King
    Lutil Undarkuningin - Viceroy Duke

    Hoh Hobiþling - Tribal Duke
    Hobiþling - Tribal Count

    Hoha Hobiþlingin - Female Tribal Duke
    Hobiþlingin - Female Tribal Count

    Forist - Prince
    Foristin - Princess

    Nurþ - North
    Sunþ - South
    Ost - East
    West - West

    Helag Romisk Rike - Holy Roman Empire
    Þiudiskland - Germany(Deutschland)
    Angululand - England
    Skaþenaua - Scandinavia
    Baurgand - Burgundy
    Danimarka - Danmark
    Swehurike/Swehen - Sweden
    Nurþwig - Norway
    Frisland - Frisia
    West Frisland - West Frisia
    Ost Frisland - East Frisia
    Baiowaran - Bavaria(Bayern)
    Sweban - Swabia
    Sahsen - Saxony
    Sunþsahsane - Sussex(Suþseaxe)
    Westsahsane - Wessex(Westseaxna)
    Ostsahsane - Essex(Eastseaxe)
    Midlsahsans - Middlesex(Middleseaxan)
    Ost Angulans - East Anglia(East Engla)
    Iutaland - Jutland
    Sibunborgum - Transylvania(Siebenbürgen)
    Frankam - Franconia(Franken)
    Ostaririke - Austria(Österreich)
    Lutilumborg - Luxembourg
    Thoringan - Thuringia(Thüringen)
     
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    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    Some notes about the Busbecq's Gothic consonants.

    Wulfila's b and d were stops word-initially, elsewhere (except after n and m) probably spirants like in Spanish. G was most probably a spirant everywhere, like in Dutch.

    b-: b-
    *bards : bars
    "barba" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/bardaz - Wiktionary), perhaps **barth
    *buga : boga
    "arcus" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/bugô - Wiktionary)
    *brauþ : broe "panis" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/braudą - Wiktionary)
    broþar : bruder "frater"
    brunna : brunna "fons"

    except:
    bloþ : plut "sanguis"

    -b- : -v-
    sibun : seuene
    "septem"
    silubr : siluir "argentum"

    devoiced word-finally, as in Wulfila's language:
    haubiþ : hoef "caput"

    d- : t-
    dags : tag "dies"
    daur : thurn "porta"

    -d- : -d-
    *addj : ada "ovum" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/ajją - Wiktionary)
    fidwor, fidur- : fyder "quattuor"

    but devoiced word-finally:
    *weinagards : wingart "vitis" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/gardaz - Wiktionary)

    g- : g-
    *gaian : geen
    "ire" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/gāną - Wiktionary)
    gulþ : goltz "aurum"

    -g- : -g-
    augona : oeghene
    "oculi"
    *buga : boga "arcus" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/bugô - Wiktionary)
    rign : reghen "pluvia"
    *wagns : waghen "currus" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/wagnaz - Wiktionary)
    (gh is used before e)

    -k- : -ch-
    in several cases
    ik : ich "ego"
    meki : mycha "ensis"
    Since the Crimean Gothic speaker was a Crimean Greek, and Melitopolitan Greek (the modern descendant of Crimean Greek) knows k>x, it has been suggested that this occasional x comes from the accent of this Greek speaker.

    þ- : tz- (þ ?)
    þu : tzo
    "tu"

    -þ- : -tz- (þ ?)
    gulþ : goltz
    "aurum"
    staþs : statz "terra"

    s : š in the same cases as in German
    fisks : fisct (fisch ?) "piscis"
    *skiutan : schieten "mittere sagittam" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/skeutaną - Wiktionary)
    slepan : schlipen "dormire"
    *swalts : schwalth "mors" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/sweltaną - Wiktionary)
    swistar : schwester "soror"
    *snuza : (?) schuos (schnos ?) "sponsa" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/snuzō - Wiktionary)
    (this latter word suggests that Crimean Gothic didn't have rhotacism)

    č (?)
    *hailiþs : (?) ieltsch "vivus sive sanus" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hailijaną - Wiktionary)
    *rinds : rintsch "mons" (rand - Wiktionary ?)
    winds : wintch "ventus"

    For the purpose of your list, this means:
    b->b-
    -b->-v-
    d->t or
    better d as we don't know when the devoicing occurred (this shift has been hypothetically ascribed to the Turkic influence since the mountain Crimean Tatarian doesn't have d-)
    -d->d
    g>g
    þ>th
    z>z


    The rise of hissing consonants š and č most probably occurred later than your target period.
     
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    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    For the final vowels, we have the following.

    A
    a : a

    brunna : brunna "fons"
    *buga : boga "arcus" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/bugô - Wiktionary)
    *maþloda (maþljan "to speak publicly or at an assembly") : malthata "ego dico" (actually, Preterite; a 1st class weak verb in the Bible vs. 2nd class at Busbecq's; with metathesis)
    sada "centum" (from Alanian *sada, compare Ossetic sædæсӕдӕ - Wiktionary)
    twa : tua "duo"
    waurhta (?) : warthata "fecisti; fecit" (tzo warthata "tu fecisti"; ies warthata "ille fecit" — waurhta - Wiktionary)
    þrija : tria "tres"

    a : e
    augona : oeghene
    "oculi"
    mena : mine "luna"

    a : ∅
    *snuza : (?) schuos (schnos ?)
    "sponsa" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/snuzō - Wiktionary)

    So, the masculine n-stems show either -a (brunna, boga) or -e (mine). The Preterite -da~-ta retains -a. The neuter Nom.~Acc. Pl. shows either -a (tria) or -e (oeghene). Both may actually represent the same schwa. The only feminine ā-stem seems to have lost the vowel (if the etymology is correct; otherwise Gothic may have retained the original o-stem — Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/snusós - Wiktionary). Let's assume late 1st millennium Gothic still had -a.


    O
    o : o

    *hano : ano
    "gallina" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hanjō - Wiktionary)

    o : a
    *miurjo : miera
    "formica" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/miurijǭ - Wiktionary; for iu : ie cp. *skiutan : schieten)

    o : e
    sunno : sune
    "sol"

    au : e
    ahtau : athe
    "octo"

    o : ∅
    stairno : stein
    (stern ?) "stella"
    -dauro : thurn "porta" (daurons - Wiktionary and augadauro - Wiktionary)

    So, the vowel (in feminine and neuter n-stems and in the word "eight") ranges from seemingly retained (perhaps as a schwa as well) to completely lost. Let's keep it as -o in your Gothic.


    Other cases
    ∅ : e
    niun
    (Genitive Plural niuneniune - Wiktionary) : nyne "novem"
    sibun : seuene "septem" (perhaps the same e as in nyne)
    taihun : thiine "decem" (the same ?)

    ? : a
    handus : handa
    "manus" (may be a separate development of a consonant stem: to u-stem in Wulfila's Gothic and some other languages vs. ā- or n-stem in Busbecq's)

    ? : o
    *hrings : rinck
    sive ringo "annulus" (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hringaz - Wiktionary; the o-form may represent an n-stem)


    ✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻✻

    The final s.

    West Germanic looses *-z, North Germanic converts it into R>r, East Germanic devoices it to s in Wulfila's Gothic.

    In Busbecq's Gothic -s is mostly absent in nouns and adjectives, but is retained in the pronoun ies "ille" (Wulfila's is) and the numeral seis "sex" (Wulfila's saihs), as well as in four nouns: fers "vir" (Wulfila's fairƕus "world" — Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/ferhuz - Wiktionary, compare Norse fjǫrr "man" — fjǫrr - Wiktionary), ieltsch, rintsch and wintch (see in the previous post). It seems therefore probable that the former distinction between the Nominative and Accusative Singular had been abandoned and the former Accusative form was mostly generalized, with some exceptions (like in French, cp. fils; notice that of four Busbecq's nouns with -s all retain it after a consonant cluster). For the last third of the 1st millennium let's keep the Nominative with its -s where appropriate.

    P. S. For those interested in Crimean Gothic, there is a recent Russian book on this topic: Ганина НА · 2011 · Крымско-готский языкГанина НА · 2011 · Крымско-готский язык.pdf
     
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    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    On a bit of a sidenote, but do you believe that the open syllable law wasn't active yet around the II century a.d.?
    I think that wasn't actually a single law that emerged in the speech of a single generation of kids and affected immediately all the syllable boundaries. Rather, it was a tendency that operated during many centuries and involved different consonants at different periods. For example, much of East Slavic didn't experience this law at all in the case of *ir and *ur, which, unlike in all other Slavic dialects, never became syllabic sonorants and always retained the final r (*sirpan > *sirpV, Finnic sirppi > сьрпъ > серп; *turguṣ > *turgu, Finnic turku > търгъ > торг). Likewise, in ну-verbs Russian is more prone to dropping the consonant than Ukrainian (тянуть : тягнути) and Church Slavonic (гинуть : гыбнѫти).

    As to the nasalized vowels, the problem is in documenting the time of their development through loanwords into other languages. This can be only done when a preceding vowel had changed in comparison with its original state. For example, the Russian surname of Polish origin Голомб («Голубь») taken alone doesn't allow to tell whether Polish at the time of borrowing had a nasalized vowel or a vowel+sonorant cluster in the suffix: both would be substituted in the same manner. The same with the French Macron → Russian Макрон… We only have loanwords from Slavic beginning from the second half of the 1st millennium, and they show that the original vowel had already changed to that time, e. g. Votic koontala : kǫdelь (a middle long vowel still with nasalization) → Votic lookka : lǫka (a middle long vowel already without nasalization), Romanian a munci : mǫčiti (a high vowel with nasalization). As to *in, the only possible example that comes to mind is the Romanian cinstit : čęstitъ (Romanian Words of Slavic Origin) if it is a proper loan and not a contamination of two words as discussed there. If in is original, then at the time of first Slavic : Daco-Romance contacts it was still present. For the 2nd century we have not a slightest clue whether the future nasalized vowels were already modified comparing with their original state of plain vowel + n/m. Three centuries later, if Antae (Antes (people) - Wikipedia) was a Slavic word, then the nasalization, if present at all, still hadn't influenced the timbre of the vowel.

    Update. It seems that in was still intact at the time of the Slavic invasion of Greece in the 6–7th centuries as there is the Slavic tribe (with the name of Germanic origin) Μηλιγγοί~Μεληγγοί~Μιλιγκοί (Melingoi - Wikipedia) with -ing- retained as such. This tribal name seems to have survived in Poland, in a much more phonetically advanced form: Mlądz<*Mьlędźь<*MilingV (Mlądz, Lwówek Śląski County - Wikipedia), compare ksiądz<kъnędźь<*kuningV (ksiądz - Wiktionary) and pieniądz (pieniądz - Wiktionary).
     
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    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    One last step before the proper reply.

    Browsing the book Wrede F · 1891 · Über die Sprache der Ostgoten in Italien (Wrede F · 1891 · Über die Sprache der Ostgoten in Italien.pdf). It deals with the attestations of Ostrogothic names in Italy in the 6th and 7th centuries, almost contemporary with your 8th century. Crimean Goths were Ostrogoths too, so the language must have been almost the same, with only dialectal differences.

    Wulfila's iu is very rare:
    Thiudigoto, Tiudigotho but Theodicodo, Theudicodo, Theudigotam
    we mostly find eu and eo:
    Euterius
    Eutharicus, Eutaricus, Eutarcus, Euthericus, Eutericus, Eotharicus, Autharicus
    Hereleuva
    Theodahadus, Theodohadus, Theudahadus, Teodohadus, Theodehadus, Theodahatus,
    Theodatus, Theodadus, Theudadus, Theudotus, Theothatus, Teuthadus, Theothadus, Theuthadus, Teodatus, Deodatus, Θευδάτος
    Theodegotha
    Theodicodo
    Theudanus
    Θευδέγισκλος
    Θευδενάνθῃ
    Θευδέριχος, Θεοδώριχος, Θευδερίχ, Theodericus, Teudericus, Theudericus, Teodoricus, Theodoricus, Theoderichus
    Θευδιχοῦσα
    Λεύδερις
    The final -s in the Nominative Singular is absent (as I wrote in #2 and contrary to what I suggested in #7):
    Geberic, Geberich, Ghiveric, Giberit
    Ruderic, Ruderit
    Θευδερίχ


    Achiulf
    Ediulf
    Oduulf
    Vultuulf
    Γουνδούλφ
    Ἰνδούλφ

    Herduic

    Guduin
    Odoin, Oduin
    Osuin
    Tholuin, Tuluin, Toliuit, Tholuit


    Aderit
    Frumarith, Frumarit
    Landarit
    Optarit
    Sinderith
    Viliarid~Uuiliarit~Guiliarit

    Alamud
    Ebremud, Evermud, Ἐβριμούθ
    Rosemud
    Wachimut


    Wandil

    Anduit

    Dumerit
    Guderit
    Gundirit, Gunderit
    Lendarit
    Livvirit, Luitfrid, Liuerit
    Nanderit
    Witterit

    Willienant

    Vult, Vuld

    Blidin, Blindin

    Ademunt

    Felithanc, Felethanc
    Riccitanc

    Adiud, Adiut

    Þ appears to have voiced intervocalically and often is voiced word-finally (see names above).

    P. S. Do you need to mark vowel lengths in Gothic, e. g. should it be Oswin or Ôswîn? If you do in other Germanic languages, I'd suggest to keep the lengths here as well.

    P. P. S. Wikipedia searches descendants of Crimean Goths among modern Crimean Tatars, but the Christian population, to which Goths mostly belonged, was evacuated in the second half of the 18th century from Crimea to the northern shore of the Azov sea and is known now as Mariupolitan Greeks (Mariupol Greek - Wikipedia), so the majority of descendants of Crimean Goths, Alans etc. are probably dissolved among this Greek subgroup (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Греки_Приазовя2.jpg).
     

    killerbee256

    Senior Member
    American English
    P. S. Do you need to mark vowel lengths in Gothic, e. g. should it be Oswin or Ôswîn? If you do in other Germanic languages, I'd suggest to keep the lengths here as well.
    No the game engine can't display most of those marks. The only one that are programed in are those used French, Spanish and most used in Old Norse.(the developers are Swedish)

    How should I handle j from biblical Gothic? For instance I've constructed Helja for goddess Hel. I suspect the j should become an i based on Old High German and Old Saxon example Hellia. Another example is *auja, island. (side note should the au become o in that word? So oia as in Old Saxon?)
     
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    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    How should I handle j from biblical Gothic? For instance I've constructed Helja for goddess Hel. I suspect the j should become an i based on Old High German and Old Saxon example Hellia. Another example is *auja, island. (side note should the au become o in that word? So oia as in Old Saxon?)
    Old High German and Old Saxon didn't have a j letter (e. g. they wrote iâr), that's a later addition, so this i before a vowel letter may mean both j, i or a weakening and disappearing outcome of j (especially when it depends on the following vowel like in sibbea but sibbiu). Modern Scandinavian retains -j- in appropriate conditions, e. g. telja (telja - Wiktionary), tredje (tredje - Wiktionary). Old Norse, too, writes i in these cases.

    Oja, yes. Compare the fate of Wulfila's Gothic Frauja (frauja - Wiktionary):
    In one inscription from the Vandal Kingdom, the Christian incantation of Kyrie eleison is given in Vandalic as "Froia arme" ("Lord, have mercy!").[1] The same phrase appears in Collatio Beati Augustini cum Pascentio ariano 15 by Pseudo-Augustine: "Froja armes".[2]
    Vandalic language - Wikipedia
     

    killerbee256

    Senior Member
    American English
    When I'm starting with a Proto-Germanic word what do I do with w? I've noticed some times it remains w like *Wodan or 16th century Teiw. But in the example you used in your last post Wulfila's frauja; Proto-Germanic aw becomes au then o. But I've encountered strange cases like Proto-Germanic Bajowarjaz, Bavaria. The earliest Old High German form Beiara has dropped the w and o. I suspect this happened in part because it's a contraction of two words. Should I do the same in Crimean Gothic?
     

    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    When I'm starting with a Proto-Germanic word what do I do with w? I've noticed some times it remains w like *Wodan or 16th century Teiw. But in the example you used in your last post Wulfila's frauja; Proto-Germanic aw becomes au then o. But I've encountered strange cases like Proto-Germanic Bajowarjaz, Bavaria. The earliest Old High German form Beiara has dropped the w and o. I suspect this happened in part because it's a contraction of two words. Should I do the same in Crimean Gothic?
    The original Proto-Indo-European and later Common Germanic combinations vowel + w were not diphthongs but ordinary juxtapositions of two sounds: their vocalic element generally developed as the same vowel before other sonorants. This situation began to change with the modification (closing and/or monophthongization) of ai and au in the course of the 1st millennium, which for the first time in several millennia created alternations between vowel + w + consonant/coda and vowel + w + vowel.

    Additional complexities emerged when syncope reintroduced w at the syllable end, e. g. Late Common Germanic *xlaı̯waz (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hlaiwaz - Wiktionary) gave Old English hlēo (hleo - Wiktionary), hlǣw (hlæw - Wiktionary) and hlāw (hlaw - Wiktionary); normally in Old English *ew>ēo (*teu̯đō>þēodReconstruction:Proto-Germanic/þeudō - Wiktionary), but *þewaz>þēo~þēow (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/þewaz - Wiktionary) with w reintroduced from case forms where it was retained before the vowel (e. g. Gen. Sg. þēowes, where in its turn ēo was introduced from the Nom.~Acc. Sg.).

    The fate of these newer diphthongs from w + syncopated vowel depended on the general fate of diphthongs in the language. In Gothic syncope occurred very early and monophthongization postdated it, thus affecting these newer diphthongs as well, e. g. *nawiz>naus (Wulfila most probably pronounced *nôs; Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/nawiz - Wiktionary). Crimean Gothic almost certainly continued the same trend, so *nô. For not to complicate things, I'd suggest to keep it this way.

    In Old Saxon *au>ō, but these newer a + w + syncopated vowel give both ō and ā (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/fawaz - Wiktionary, Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/frawaz - Wiktionary), suggesting that w that had become final due to syncope was stronger than u in the original a + w + consonant and thus withstood regular monophthongization for some time. Also, as in the above Old English examples, paradigmatic leveling may have reintroduced w, and we can't be sure which variant would eventually win, e. g. in Dutch *strawan>stro (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/strawą - Wiktionary) vs. *xrawaz>rauw (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/hrawaz - Wiktionary); English *knewan>knee (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/knewą - Wiktionary) vs. *þewaz>thew (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/þewaz - Wiktionary).
     
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    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    So, finally, my suggestions. So far this is a preliminary list. Will be updating the following days.

    Kesar - Emperor
    +

    Kuning - King

    Theudan — cp. Theudanus in #10 and þiudans - Wiktionary; that's actually a higher position than *kyning since þiuda - Wiktionary is "people, nation" while kuni - Wiktionary is "kin"

    Haritiuho - Duke

    HeritogaReconstruction:Proto-Germanic/harjatugô - Wiktionary; Nom. Sg. of masculine n-stems is a in Gothic; -ja- had shortened into -i- in other languages of this period (herizogo - Wiktionary) and after long syllables already in Wulfila's language (arbja "heir" — arbja - Wiktionary but arbi·numja "heir" — arbinumja - Wiktionary); let's keep -i- (not >e) at the stem boundary as in Old High German etc.

    Grifio/Erl - Count

    GrifjaReconstruction:Proto-Germanic/grēfijô - Wiktionary
    Eral — *airls < Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/erlaz - Wiktionary

    Þegn - Baron

    Thegan — (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/þegnaz - Wiktionary), cp. Crimean Gothic reghen, waghen

    Kesarin - Female Emperor

    Kesarini, cp. saurini - Wiktionary, though the feminine suffixes are attested in Wulfila's Gothic very scarcely and are not uniform, cp. also -i (þiwi - Wiktionary, frijondi - Wiktionary) and -o (arbjo - Wiktionary, niþjo - Wiktionary)

    Kuningin - Female King

    Theudano (þiwi and frijondi are formed from consonant stem masculines þius and frijonds; arbjo from an n-stem masculine arbja; niþjo from a thematic masculine niþjis; Saurini from an i-stem Saur; þiudans is a thematic stem too, so let it follow the niþjo pattern)
    For the persistence of the feminine -o cp. the Crimean Gothic ano "hen" (ano - Wiktionary and in #7) < *xanô


    Haritiuhoin - Female Duke

    Heritogo (like arbja→arbjo)

    Grifioin/Erlin - Female Count

    Grifjo and Erlo (like arbja→arbjo)

    Þegnin - Female Baron

    Thegno (like Theudano)

    Grotare Undarkuning - Viceroy Emperor


    Undarkuning - Viceroy King


    Lutil Undarkuning - Viceroy Duke


    Grotare Undarkuningin - Female Viceroy Emperor


    Undarkuningin - Female Viceroy King


    Lutil Undarkuningin - Viceroy Duke


    Hoh Hobiþling - Tribal Duke


    Hobiþling - Tribal Count


    Hoha Hobiþlingin - Female Tribal Duke


    Hobiþlingin - Female Tribal Count


    Forist - Prince

    The exact counterpart of the German word would have been *faurists>Førist. The real word in Wulfila's Gothic was, however, frumists (frumists - Wiktionary), which would have given Frymist; for the preservation of i cp. furisto - Wiktionary
    Rikreiks - Wiktionary, rather "lord"

    Foristin - Princess

    Føristo or Frymisto

    Nurþ - North

    the outcome of Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/nurþrą - Wiktionary is not attested, must have been *naurþr, thus Nordar (for þ>d see #10)

    Sunþ - South

    Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/sunþrą - Wiktionary is not attested too, would have been *sunþr, thus Sundar

    Ost - East

    Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/austrą - Wiktionary > *austr (in Austrogothi~Ostrogothi) > Ostar

    West - West
    Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/westrą - Wiktionary > *wistr, thus Westar
     
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    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    The second part.

    Helag Romisk Rike - Holy Roman Empire
    holy is wih (m~n), wiha (f), wihata (n) < weihs - Wiktionary and helag (m~n), helaga (f), helagata (n) < hailags - Wiktionary, since other languages have the latter, let's chose Helagata; for the preservation of -ata cp. malthata and warthata in #7
    For "Roman Empire" Gothic Wikipedia uses Rumonisk reiki, a calque of the usage in other Germanic languages, though Wulfila uses reiki in a somewhat special sense (reiki - Wiktionary).
    Perhaps Helagata Rumøniskata Riki (if with strong adjectives, cp. Heiliges Römisches Reich – Wikipedia) or Helago Rumønisko Riki (if with weak ones, cp. Heilaga rómverska ríkið - Wikipedia, frjálsa alfræðiritið, Wulfila's Gothic weak neuter ending in Nom.~Acc. Sg. was -o)
    By the way, this full title with "Holy" is from the 12th century — Holy Roman Empire - Wikipedia

    Þiudiskland - Germany(Deutschland)

    Wulfila uses iudaialand - Wiktionary and Gothic Bible, Mark chapter 1 for ἰουδαία χώρα, so Theudiskaland (for eu see Theud- in #10).
    The final vowel in thematic stems in Wulfila's language sometimes persists (weina·gards "vineyard", aina·baur "first-born", lausa·waurdi "empty talk"), sometimes disappears (wein·drugkja "wine-bibber", ain·falþei "simplicity", laus·handus "empty-handed"); since -skl- is a heavy combination, let's retain -skal- and overall -aland in country names for consistency.


    Angululand - England

    The Old English word is the umlauted Enȝaland, and ancient authors also have Ἄγγειλοι~Ἄγγιλοι (List of ancient Germanic peoples and tribes - Wikipedia) with the expected i, so Engelaland

    Skaþenaua - Scandinavia

    Skedenoja < Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/Skaþinawjō - Wiktionary, cp. also Oium - Wikipedia, for d see Italian and Crimean Gothic (broþar>bruder) examples above

    Baurgand - Burgundy

    Interestingly, despite being East Germanics, Burgundians (attested with burg-) don't show Wulfila's development *ur>aur (baurgs - Wiktionary). Since we're assuming it was a common Gothic change, we must postulate for Crimean Gothic *Baurgundaland > Borgundaland or Borgundo (neuter n-stem as below in Saxo etc.)

    Danimarka - Danmark

    Denimarka (cp. marka - Wiktionary) — Danmǫrk - Wiktionary: i umlauts a in Old English but doesn't do so in Norse: *katilôz>katlar, *taliđōn>talða; i is retained at the stem boundary as in heritoga~heritogo, cp. an Old High German variant tenimarkara: literally "Denmarkers" (http://www.mlat.uzh.ch/MLS/info_frame.php?w=Danus)

    Swehurike/Swehen - Sweden

    Sweariki

    Nurþwig - Norway

    Nordraweg (wigs - Wiktionary), cp. Norþweg - Wiktionary

    Frisland - Frisia

    Fresaland (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/frisaz - Wiktionary and Freslond - Wiktionary; i seems to have been originally short)

    West Frisland - West Frisia

    Westrafresaland

    Ost Frisland - East Frisia

    Ostrafresaland

    Baiowaran - Bavaria(Bayern)

    Assuming the original form of "Bavarians" is something like *ƀajawarjôz (Bajuwaren – Wikipedia), cp. this root in Icelandic: Rómverjar "Romans" (Flokkur:Rómverjar - Wikivitnun), we get perhaps Bejawerjo or, reduced, Bejerjo (Old High German Beiara), neuter n-stem

    Sweban - Swabia

    Swivo (neuter n-stem) — from Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/swēbaz - Wiktionary with later Gothic ē>i and -ƀ->v

    Sahsen - Saxony

    Saxo (neuter n-stem) — from https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:proto-Germanic/sahsô

    Sunþsahsane - Sussex(Suþseaxe)

    Sundrasaxo (neuter n-stem), Sundrasaxans (Nom. Pl. as in Old English)

    Westsahsane - Wessex(Westseaxna)

    Westrasaxo, Westrasaxans

    Ostsahsane - Essex(Eastseaxe)

    Ostrasaxo, Ostrasaxans

    Midlsahsans - Middlesex(Middleseaxan)

    The l-form (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/midlą - Wiktionary) is not attested, Gothic has the older j-form instead (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/midjaz - Wiktionary), so Midisaxo, Midisaxans (cp. Wulfila's midja·sweipains "deluge" — midjasweipains - Wiktionary) with ja>i as in heritoga and heritogo above

    Ost Angulans - East Anglia(East Engla)

    Ostraengelaland, Ostre Engelos

    Iutaland - Jutland

    Jotaland

    Sibunborgum - Transylvania(Siebenbürgen)

    That's a much younger name — since the 13th century (Historical names of Transylvania - Wikipedia). Goths passed through Dacia (Romania in the Early Middle Ages - Wikipedia) and must have had some name for the region west of the mountains. Let it be Hohaland (Caucaland - Wikipedia).

    Frankam - Franconia(Franken)

    Franko, Frankans

    Ostaririke - Austria(Österreich)

    Ostrariki

    Lutilumborg - Luxembourg

    Litelborg (leitils - Wiktionary and baurgs - Wiktionary), though the castle with this name was built in the end of the 10th century (Luxembourg City - Wikipedia), i. e. 100+ years after your target period.

    Thoringan - Thuringia(Thüringen)

    Thyringo, Thyringans

    I open the short i before broader vowels (Litelborg, Engelaland, Fresaland), except before nC (Thyringo) and in isk (Theudiskaland) and ist (frymist) — following the pattern found in other Germanic languages and in later Crimean Gothic; and also word-finally — arbitrarily (other languages have fluctuating outcomes).
     
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    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    Grotare Undarkuning - Viceroy Emperor
    Icelandic, Faroese and Finnish use the element vara- (vara- - Wiktionary), e. g. vice-president of the USA in Icelandic is varaforseti (Varaforseti Bandaríkjanna - Wikipedia, frjálsa alfræðiritið). The Norse word is vari "wariness, precaution", hence the Common Germanic masculine n-stem *warô~warê~warōn~warēn (the same root as Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/waraz - Wiktionary) with the expected, though not attested, Gothic continuation *wara (there is a related warei "wariness, guarded alertness, wiliness"). The n-stems end in -a- in compounds (augadauro - Wiktionary, stauastols - Wiktionary), so we get Wulfila's *wara-, which would have retained its shape to the 8th century. Hence Warakesar.

    On the other hand, if these variants with minder you mention in #1 denote not lieutenants but simply intermediate positions in the hierarchy (like sergeant : junior sergeant), then we have Wulfila's minniza - Wiktionary > minniza (masculine; minniza - Wiktionary), minnizi (feminine; minnizei - Wiktionary); for the retention of -i- cp. Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/minnizô - Wiktionary. I have not found examples when the Comparative degree was added to another word to form a compound, so perhaps these terms should be kept as simple word-combinations, hence Minniza Kesar. If you prefer compounds, let it be minnis-, hence Minniskesar.

    Undarkuning - Viceroy King
    Waratheudan, Minniza Theudan, Minnistheudan

    Lutil Undarkuning - Viceroy Duke
    Waraheritoga, Minniza Heritoga, Minnisheritoga

    Grotare Undarkuningin - Female Viceroy Emperor
    Warakesarini, Minnizi Kesarini, Minniskesarini

    Undarkuningin - Female Viceroy King
    Waratheudano, Minnizi Theudano, Minnistheudano

    Lutil Undarkuningin - Viceroy Duke
    Waraheritogo, Minnizi Heritogo, Minnisheritogo

    Hoh Hobiþling - Tribal Duke
    Apparently a counterpart of heafodling - Wiktionary, with Wulfila's Gothic elements haubiþ - Wiktionary and -liggs - Wiktionary, hence hoved or hovod (Crimean Gothic hoef, see in #6, with no umlaut, so perhaps from the u-variant: Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/haubudą - Wiktionary) + -(i)ling, hence Hovodling, hence Hoh Hovodling (there could be an umlaut from -iling as in German Häuptling - Wiktionary, but let's keep it simple). Alternatively, you may prefer the variant without -l- as in the Norse hǫfðingi (höfðingi - Wiktionary, this ö is not an umlaut, since *ö>e in Old Icelandic and the modern Icelandic ö<ǫ), then Hoh Hovoding
    Also, the adjective could have been in a weak form, then Hoha Hovodling or Hoha Hovoding

    Hobiþling - Tribal Count
    Hovodling or Hovoding

    Hoha Hobiþlingin - Female Tribal Duke
    Hoh Hovodlingo, Hoh Hovodingo, Hoh Hovodlingjo or Hoh Hovodingjo (here -jo is another variant of the feminine suffix)
    (with a weak adjective it will be
    Hoho)

    Hobiþlingin - Female Tribal Count
    Hovodlingo, Hovodingo, Hovodlingjo or Hovodingjo

    The above two posts with my suggestions have been finalized. I only have thought that perhaps Engelaland would shorten into Engeland, and accordingly Ostraengeland

    Additional Wulfila's words with the feminine -o: qino - Wiktionary "woman", haiþno - Wiktionary "heatheness", widuwo - Wiktionary "widow", swaihro - Wiktionary "mother-in-law", mawilo - Wiktionary "girl" (all feminine n-stems).
     
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    killerbee256

    Senior Member
    American English
    I finally got these interrogated. My next move is to start with England as I have a source on British Toponymy. I'll post those when I get a sizable amount created.
     

    ahvalj

    Senior Member
    Old English historical phonetics is a nightmare: in the amount of changes, the dialectal diversity, and overall irregularity of many resulting forms. I perhaps won’t be able to produce reliable results… By the way, what we see in manuals and dictionaries is late Old English, of the end of the millennium.

    P. S. A correction to my above post: ö>e is the change that occurred between Old and Modern Icelandic.
     

    killerbee256

    Senior Member
    American English
    Old English historical phonetics is a nightmare: in the amount of changes, the dialectal diversity, and overall irregularity of many resulting forms. I perhaps won’t be able to produce reliable results… By the way, what we see in manuals and dictionaries is late Old English, of the end of the millennium.

    P. S. A correction to my above post: ö>e is the change that occurred between Old and Modern Icelandic.
    I know what you mean, place names recorded 10 years apart can be wildly different because the origin of the scribe and choices they made. But the source I have A Dictionary of British Place-Names, simplifies it well enough here is an random example or two. One small annoyance is that the author A. D. Mills used a different standard of old English than Wiktionary which means I need to search a little to find the proto Germanic.
    Kiddington Oxon. Chidintone 1086 (DB). ‘Estate associated with a man called Cydda’.
    OE pers. name + -ing- + tūn.
    Droitwich Worcs. Wich 1086 (DB), Drihtwych 1347. ‘Dirty or muddy saltworks’. OE wīc
    with the later addition of OE drit ‘dirt’.
     
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