I deliver the unpopular vote

Necsus

Senior Member
Italian (Italy)
Buondì, WRF!
Sempre da 'Grease Live!', ho qualche difficoltà a rendere la locuzione 'unpopular vote'. Eugene viene sorpreso da Patty mentre toglie un suo poster elettorale per la corsa alla carica di vicepresidente del consiglio studentesco per fare posto a quello del Rocket Club da lui organizzato. Queste sono le battute:

PATTY - Back away before I call the authorities! I need to get my message across!
EUGENE - But people are sick of it.
PATTY - Clearly you know nothing about politics.
EUGENE - What if I deliver the unpopular vote?
PATTY - Please. Why do I need votes from losers?
EUGENE - Because we're the majority.

Come si potrebbe rendere 'I deliver the unpopular vote', forse 'io guido il dissenso popolare'? Con 'unpopular vote' si intende un non-voto o un voto contro?
Grazie!
 
  • Benzene

    Senior Member
    Italian from Italy
    Hello Necsus!

    According to the dialogue I would translate "unpopolar vote" as "detested, hated vote" from the fact these votes would come from "losers" who normally in the world of today are "unpopular people".

    Bye,

    Benzene
     

    Necsus

    Senior Member
    Italian (Italy)
    Thank you, Joan & Benzene.
    So the vote would be unpopolar because it comes from unpopolar people? Therefore it could be "il voto degli impopolari/emarginati/reietti".
     
    The term "the unpopular vote" doesn't mean to me that the voters themselves are unpopular. It's more technical than that. It usually comes up in contexts where it is contrasted with "the popular vote". So the Electoral College system, for example, is contrasted with a "popular vote" system where the President of the US would be elected on the basis of the total vote cast throughout the nation.
    It is difficult for me to understand how that applies in the context of the script, but it is interesting that Eugene says in this modern version of "Grease" "...we are the majority". It would not have been true in 1959 that the not-so-popular (in the non-technical sense) conscientious "nerds" were in the majority, but perhaps it is in 2016. Perhaps the so-called "unpopular" vote is in this version "the popular vote" - there are more of these people around than you think and they will get you the majority you need.
    Edit: The writer of this article takes the same line, but perhaps we're both wrong:
    FOX's Grease: Live--Review
     
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    Necsus

    Senior Member
    Italian (Italy)
    Hmm... you and your friend Rudy could be right, John. So what do you suggest? Could something like "perché siamo la maggioranza silenziosa" (silent majority) at the end works?
     
    That's the problem! I wanted to suggest "non popolare", but the problem is that "unpopular" in the usual sense is "impopolare" , and though "voto impopolare" exists, it probably just means a vote / result of a vote that was unpopular (not much liked). I thought about "maggioranza silenziosa" for the second part, but he just says "majority". Again, this is to me an exciting new version of Grease which makes you think. Eugene and his fellow nerds may not be so silent when push comes to shove.
    Eugene is perhaps playing with both senses of "unpopular" which has more resonances in 2016 . In the recent past a majority of US citizens, apparently, have voted for changing the current system - to a more "popular" vote.
    Edit: I also have difficulty with "deliver" here. He is confident that he can bring her/ produce the votes she needs to win. But I'm not sure which of the Italian verbs, if any, in the dictionary under "deliver" would convey that.

    (I've never had a friend - in fact I've never met - anyone called Rudy:))
     
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    rrose17

    Senior Member
    Canada, English
    The term "the unpopular vote" doesn't mean to me that the voters themselves are unpopular. It's more technical than that.
    Sorry John but I'm with Joan on this, nothing technical about it. This is high school 1959, to me there's no doubt they're talking about the unpopular kids. In high school, back then, but even to this day, there are popular kids and the rest, the "unpopular ones".
     
    Ciao, Rrose. I am not disagreeing with you about the situation in 1959, and I do think "unpopular" has that sense of "unpopular kids". I am just saying that the "unpopular kids" whom he says are in the majority (there are more of them than the popular kids who tend to put themselves up for election and win) will turn out and win the election on a "popular vote". (Which seems to me a clever idea).

    Anyway, what about:
    “Supponiamo che riuscirò ad attirare i voti degli studenti impopolari?”... (avoiding "popular vote").

    “Perché siamo la maggioranza.”

    Is the future OK here? (riuscirò)
     
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    Blackman

    Senior Member
    Italiano/Sardo
    Anyway, what about:
    “Supponiamo che riuscirò ad attirare i voti degli studenti impopolari?”... (avoiding "popular vote").

    “Perché siamo la maggioranza.”

    Is the future OK here? (riuscirò)
    No John, it should goes as supponiamo che riesca...

    It seems to me that unpopular should be taken as a noun, like what if I deliver the unpopulars' vote?

    E se riuscissi a portare i voti degli impopolari?
     
    Thanks Blackman - I thought about the congiuntivo then had second thoughts. I should have stayed with it.
    Mi piace:
    E se riuscissi a portare i voti degli impopolari? (Though in this context it is the same as "degli studenti impopolari").
     

    Necsus

    Senior Member
    Italian (Italy)
    However at this point I'm convinced at least that 'unpopular' here doesn't mean 'impopolari', but 'non popolari', that actually could be the majority.
     
    Buongiorno, Necsus. Re-reading this thread, I feel I have muddied the waters, and I am sorry about that. I would stick with "impopolari" who, according to Eugene, are actually in the majority. My wondering at one time about "non popolare" was restricted to the particular collocation "unpopular vote", the expression actually used by Eugene, which can have in some contexts, I think, a more "technical" meaning. Blackman's translation seems excellent.
     

    Necsus

    Senior Member
    Italian (Italy)
    Grazie, John e Pietruzzo.
    John, il riferimento a 'non popolare' però è servito a farmi riflettere sul fatto che a mio avviso i 'non popolari' (non noti) sono sicuramente la maggioranza, in una popolazione scolastica, invece gli 'impopolari' (non graditi al popolo) non direi.

    Il problema della maggioranza si pone ovviamente anche con 'imbranati' ('sfigati' non lo userei, soprattutto nel '59), Pietruzzo. E a me francamente non sembra un inglesismo, se non c'è un motivo per dargli questo valore, perché 'popolare' in italiano è usato regolarmente anche con questo significato (Gabrielli):
    Che gode il favore del popolo, che è notissimo alla gente: uno scrittore straniero p. anche in Italia; attore popolarissimo; canzonetta p.; il calcio è uno sport molto p.
     

    Pietruzzo

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Che gode il favore del popolo, che è notissimo alla gente:
    But a popular student, as far as I know,
    is something different. They get all the dates they like; they're good at sports and are invited to the parties. In a word they are "cool". Cone to that, those kind of people tend to consider all the others " sfigati". "Umpopular vote" sounds sarcastic to me and actually conveys the idea of "il voto di noialtri, quelli che voi considerate sfigati". My humble opinion.
     

    Blackman

    Senior Member
    Italiano/Sardo
    I'm with Necsus here. It's actually a fine distinction, impopolari and non popolari are not the same thing. In ogni consorzio umano esiste chi si distingue in bene e pertanto è conosciuto e dunque popolare; gli impopolari, quelli che si distinguono per impopolarità, cioè che non piacciono a nessuno; la maggioranza a fare da sfondo, che potremmo definire gli sconosciuti o non popolari.
     
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    ohn, il riferimento a 'non popolare' però è servito a farmi riflettere sul fatto che a mio avviso i 'non popolari' (non noti) sono sicuramente la maggioranza, in una popolazione scolastica, invece gli 'impopolari' (non graditi al popolo) non direi.
    Grazie, Necsus. Capisco.

    But I also appreciate:
    "Unpopular vote" sounds sarcastic to me and actually conveys the idea of "il voto di noialtri, quelli che voi considerate sfigati". My humble opinion."
    Ironic perhaps, rather than sarcastic - a reference to himself and others like him. In fact, they have the power to sway the vote in the end.

    So "la maggioranza a fare da sfondo, che potremmo definire gli sconosciuti o non popolari."
    An interesting thread. The scriptwriter will be pleased that it has provoked such an interesting discussion.

    So what is the final translation?
     

    L'Enrico

    Senior Member
    Italian
    i 'non popolari' (non noti) sono sicuramente la maggioranza
    I disagree with this definition of "non popolari".
    "popolare" means "supported by many" or "well-liked by many". It doesn't mean "known to many".
    In the negative, "impopolare" and "non popolare" mean the same.

    As for a translation, I quite liked "Il voto della maggioranza silenziosa, " or "Il voto degli sconosciuti."
    I realize that this seems to contradict my stance on the meaning of "popolare", but there is a cultural difference at play in the text which is difficult to translate as "sfigati" is both too strong and unlikely in the 50s, as already noted.
    Falling back on the notion of "not known" seems like the best option in light of the fact that we have a few acceptable translations in Italian.

    E.
     

    Necsus

    Senior Member
    Italian (Italy)
    Hi, L'Enrico.
    "popolare" means "supported by many" or "well-liked by many". It doesn't mean "known to many".
    Did you see the definition from dictionary that I've provided in post #19?
    Che gode il favore del popolo, che è notissimo alla gente: uno scrittore straniero p. anche in Italia; attore popolarissimo; canzonetta p.; il calcio è uno sport molto p.
    I can add another, from Treccani for instance:
    4. Che è molto conosciuto dal popolo (inteso come universalità dei cittadini) e ne gode il favore, le simpatie; quindi, benvisto, benvoluto: un attore, un calciatore p.; è stato un presidente molto p.; il calcio e il ciclismo sono sport sempre p. in Italia.
     

    L'Enrico

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Hi Necsus,

    You may notice that both your definitions have a clear stress on "being well-liked".
    Your first definition begins with "Che gode il favore del popolo." The Treccani definition has "molto conosciuto e ne gode il favore."
    That's an integral part of the word "popolare" the way I understand it. I wouldn't use "popolare" to mean "conosciuto" tout court.
    More so in the negative, as is the case in this thread. Impopolare/non popolare clearly means "not well-liked by many" to me.

    Perhaps this is a discussion for the SI forum, though.

    E.
     

    Necsus

    Senior Member
    Italian (Italy)
    Io non vedo affatto una sottolineatura del 'well-liked', che leggo invece come una conseguenza del fatto che la persona è nota, perché se il popolo non la conoscesse non potrebbe neanche apprezzarla o non apprezzarla.
    E tanto meno condivido l'affermazione che impopolare e non popolare abbiano lo stesso significato. Ma naturalmente questa è solo la mia opinione. :)
     

    L'Enrico

    Senior Member
    Italian
    che leggo invece come una conseguenza del fatto che la persona è nota, perché se il popolo non la conoscesse non potrebbe neanche apprezzarla o non apprezzarla.
    That's a non sequitur.
    Il fatto che se il popolo non la conoscesse non potrebbe apprezzarla non implica che se la conosce di conseguenza la apprezza.

    E.
     

    Necsus

    Senior Member
    Italian (Italy)
    E infatti ho detto "apprezzarla o non apprezzarla". Ma prima deve conoscerla.
    Ti ringrazio del contributo, però questa specifica discussione non mi sembra orientata in una direzione molto produttiva. ;)
     

    Anja.Ann

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Ciao a tutti, :)

    Non so se possa servire, tuttavia vedo che tra gli studenti "l'impopolarità" ... spopola. :D

    Necsus, il dialogo in italiano, mi rendo conto, diventa lunghissimo, ma sostanzialmente, secondo me, il messaggio gioca proprio sui binomi "popolarità/vincente" (gli studenti popolari hanno successo, sono una sorta di "distinta minoranza") e "impopolarità/perdente" (i meno popolari tra gli studenti sono, invece, anonimi, ordinari e formano la "maggioranza indistinta") in ambiente scolastico.
    Non credo funzionerà, è una "resa" molto libera, ma forse può darti uno spunto in più: :)

    PATTY - E' chiaro che non ne sai nulla di politica.
    EUGENE - E se ottenessi i voti grazie all'impopolarità?
    PATTY - Per favore. Perché pescare tra i perdenti?
    EUGENE - Perché siamo la maggioranza
     

    MR1492

    Senior Member
    English -USA
    Hi Necsus - It's an awkward phrasing, but I think he means he can deliver the votes of the unpopular students. (the losers! :))
    Hello Necsus!

    According to the dialogue I would translate "unpopolar vote" as "detested, hated vote" from the fact these votes would come from "losers" who normally in the world of today are "unpopular people".

    Bye,

    Benzene
    JVF and Benzene are completely correct. In the context of the show "Grease", it means that Eugene can deliver the votes of the kids who are considered "unpopular" in the school, i.e. the losers, who actually make up the majority of the students. While it sounds related to the term "the popular vote" in elections in the USA, it is a play on words in this case.

    Phil
     
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