I do...I have done...I had done... I had have done

Jad

Senior Member
UK, English
Hello,

Something I've been noticing is that people have been saying things like I'd have done / I had have done (or pronounced I had of done :mad:, and not meaning "I would have done")

What I understand is that we have :

I do / I am doing (present)
I did / I have done / I was doing (past)
I had done (which is ... the pluperfect tense is that ?)
I had have done (the strange thing I keep hearing)

So what is going on here ? Is it just plain wrong or could this be another tense altogether that's being made up, which goes even further back in time ? Or has anyone else actually noticed ?
 
  • JLanguage

    Senior Member
    USA: American English, Learning Hebrew and Spanish
    Jad said:
    Hello,

    Something I've been noticing is that people have been saying things like I'd have done / I had have done (or pronounced I had of done :mad:, and not meaning "I would have done")

    What I understand is that we have :

    I do / I am doing (present)
    I did / I have done / I was doing (past)
    I had done which is ... the pluperfect tense is that ?

    So what is going on here ? Is it just plain wrong or could this be another tense altogether that's being made up, which goes even further back in time ? Or has anyone else actually noticed ?
    I would say "I had of done" is both a colloquialism and an example of incorrect grammar.
     

    modgirl

    Senior Member
    USA English, French, Russian
    JLanguage said:
    I would say "I had of done" is both a colloquialism
    How odd-sounding that is; I've never heard it in my life. What function does the preposition of serve, and how would it be used in context of a conversation?
     

    mylam

    Senior Member
    United States English
    The "of" is a mispronunciation/misspelling of "have", which unfortunately is not rare even among college students. Gross error!! But it comes from contracting "I would have" to "I would've" to "I'd've", which sounds similar to "I'd of". Then they write it out as "I would of".

    But I've not heard the "I had have done" combination. Can you give us an example of how it's used?
     

    Brioche

    Senior Member
    Australia English
    In normal English:
    “If I had known that I would have done it.”

    This becomes, in rapid speech:
    “If I’d known that I would’ve done it.” Or “I’d’ve done it.”
    Which some people interpret to be, and sometimes write as:
    “If I’d known that I’d of done it.”

    Mangle it a bit more, and you might think it was “I had ‘ve done it”.
    And thus:
    “I had have done it.”

    Quite commonly, in rapid speech, people will put an superfluous ‘have’ in the If clause.
    "If I had ‘ve done that, I woud ‘ve won Lotto”
    Again in writing, sometimes
    “If I had of done that, I would of won Lotto”
    Then ‘over correct’ to “..I had have done …”
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    camaleon said:
    I did / I have done / I was doing (past)
    I had done

    cual seria la traduccion al español
    I'm tempted to answer you - but for a Spanish translation you should post in the Spanish forum. :)
     

    panjandrum

    Lapsed Moderator
    English-Ireland (top end)
    I think this may happen as a result of someone with partial understanding trying to be a little more formal.
    They want to "improve" on I'd have done ...
    ... and "improve" I'd to I had, instead of I would.

    Jad assures us in his post that this strange creature definitely does not mean I would have done.
    It would be really helpful to have a real example of its use so that we can try to work it out. Right now, we're coming up with possibilities.
    Come back Jad - we need you:)
     

    Helicopta

    Senior Member
    England - English (Learning Spanish)
    I think it’s simply a colloquialism. I use this superfluous ‘have/of’ myself. It’s difficult to say whether it's a 'have' or an 'of' because the actual sound is more of a short ‘uh’. I would say it generally manifests itself in situations where I want to emphasise had rather than use I’d.

    So…
    “I wish I had done” becomes “I wish I ‘ad uh done (I wish I had have/of done)”
    “If I had done” becomes “If I ‘ad uh done (If I had have/of done)”

    When I say that I use it myself, I mean in speech… I wouldn’t write it!:eek:
     

    panjandrum

    Lapsed Moderator
    English-Ireland (top end)
    Helicopta said:
    I think it’s simply a colloquialism. I use this superfluous ‘have/of’ myself. It’s difficult to say whether it's a 'have' or an 'of' because the actual sound is more of a short ‘uh’. I would say it generally manifests itself in situations where I want to emphasise had rather than use I’d.
    So…
    “I wish I had done” becomes “I wish I ‘ad uh done (I wish I had have/of done)”
    “If I had done” becomes “If I ‘ad uh done (If I had have/of done)”
    Now that is interesting. This seemed completely alien to me until I read the red bit. Putting the I wish in front made this very familiar indeed, especially in the slightly alternative form:
    I wish I had've done.
    I wonder ...
    Listen to this conversation between wise person and disciple.

    A) I understand that you went out yesterday without clean underwear and were knocked down by a bus, is that right?
    B) That is true, oh wise one.
    A) But didn't you heed the good advice I give you every morning?
    B) No, oh wise one,
    A) If you had done, you would've made sure you were wearing clean underwear before you went out.
    B) Woe is me, oh wise one; I heard your good advice and I know I should have heeded it. Now I wish I had've done, for they discovered my guilty secret in the hospital and reported my sin to the local TV station.

    The third red bit seems to be taking the first two bits and inappropriately joining them.

    Please note: I am not suggesting that this usage is correct, only that it is common - and I am wondering how it came into being.
     

    KatrinaIan

    New Member
    Bulgarian Bulgaria
    From a purely grammatical point, a form "had have done" is totally incorrect -- there is no such grammatical category. I think it is from the abbreviated form " 'd have done" which is actually "would have done".
    Also, when trying to understand the system of tenses in English, be it Br or Am, think of three moments in time -- present, past and future. Add to that the fact that we can consider an act as repetitive/habitual or as being done at the moment of speaking; this explains simple and continuous tenses. Once you understand that, you can add the perfect tenses.
    Hope this helps.
    KatrinaIan
     

    vento11

    New Member
    russian
    - I wish I had done a study abroad program in Florinapolis about 10 years ago.
    - You may have had sinned if you had had.

    Is this correct?
    What is the difference between: 'you may have sinned if you had had' if it's correct to respond?
     
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    mplsray

    Senior Member
    How odd-sounding that is; I've never heard it in my life. What function does the preposition of serve, and how would it be used in context of a conversation?

    As indicated in a previous post, of in this case is a respelling of 've, with the result that in the Random House Dictionary, Unabridged, here, and in the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary here, it is labeled as a verbal auxiliary in an entry separate from the preposition, with M.-W. adding, correctly in my opinion, that it is nonstandard.

    Addition: I see that the Oxford English Dictionary also has of as a verb, and identified as an auxiliary, in a separate entry from the preposition.
     
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    Loob

    Senior Member
    English UK
    - i wish i had done a study abroad program in florinapolis about 10 years ago
    - you may have had sinned if you had had

    is this correct?
    what is the difference between: 'you may have sinned if you had had' if it's correct to respond?
    Hello, vento11 - welcome to the forums!

    I wish I had done a study abroad program in Florinapolis about 10 years ago :tick: Correct once you've added the capital letters. I, referring to the first person singular, is always capitalised. Proper names are also capitalised.

    you may have had sinned if you had had. I don't understand this at all:(
     
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    vento11

    New Member
    russian
    You are likely to commit a sin if you do a study abroad (but in the past).

    Still not clear?
     
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    JamesM

    Senior Member
    what about:
    you may have sinned if you had done a study abroad
    ?
    you are likely to commit a sin if you do a study abroad (but in the past)

    still not clear?
    There is no reason for "had" in this case. "You may have sinned if you have studied abroad." The "had" would indicate something that happened in the past before the other action. These actions happened during the same time period in the past.

    (Capitalization is not optional here, vento11... "You are likely to commit a sin...")
     

    ML123

    Member
    English - England
    This topic is really confusing...

    I would say (not write) : If you had have (If you'd've) studied abroad, you may have sinned.

    Maybe the inclination to include the first, incorrect "have" is because of the "have" in the second part of the sentence.

    The more I think about it, the less sure I am about anything I just wrote.
     

    Loob

    Senior Member
    English UK
    You are likely to commit a sin if you do a study abroad (but in the past).

    Still not clear?
    Ah - I think what you're looking for is "You might have sinned if you had studied abroad".

    So your conversation would be:
    - I wish I had done a study-abroad program in Florinapolis about 10 years ago.
    - You might have sinned if you had.


    "To sin" is rather formal by the way, but it could work if the second person was joking;)
     

    SuprunP

    Senior Member
    Ukrainian & Russian
    I've just found this entry and I reckon it could be of use here.

    Another controversial issue is the insertion of have where it is superfluous, as, for example, I might have missed it if you hadn't have pointed it out (rather than the standard ... if you hadn't pointed it out). This construction has been around since at least the 15th century, but only where a hypothetical situation is presented (e.g., statements starting with if). More recently, there has been speculation among grammarians and linguists that this insertion of have may represent a kind of subjunctive and is actually making a useful distinction in the language. However, it is still regarded as an error in standard English.

    New Oxford American Dictionary, 2nd Edition.
     

    ewie

    Senior Member
    English English
    I stumbled across a nice :)confused:) variation-on-the-theme today, in a short story by Edith Wharton (Mr Jones, 1928).
    Well, actually, it's a nice variation following a 'classic' had have + past part.
    The speaker is a rustic English woman (obviously it's not Edith Wharton herself:eek::D):
    "Oh, my lady, it was too unfortunate. If only your ladyship had have said ... poor Georgiana had ought to have seen; but she never DID have her wits about her, not for answering the door."
    Just thought I'd mention it.
     
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