I don't know when he <will come><comes>

yakor

Senior Member
Russian
Hi!
What is the correct sentences?
-I don't know when he will come. (in the future time)
-I don't know when he comes. (in the future time)
-I don't know when he wills to come. (when he is going to come)
 
  • yakor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Is it right, that in when-clauses, the future tenses are used only if these clauses whether the subject or the object. In this example "will come" is the future indefinite tense.
    But when the when-clause is used as the adverbial modifier, the future time is expressed with the present indefinite tense.
    When he comes, we will open this bottle.
    ----------------------------
    As to my the rest sentences...
    --I don't know when he comes. (it is right. it means "when he usually comes (appears here)"
    -I don't know when he wills to come. (it is wrong. It should be "I don't know when he will will come")
     

    The Newt

    Senior Member
    English - US
    [...]
    As to my the rest sentences...
    --I don't know when he comes. (it is right. it means "when he usually comes (appears here)"
    -I don't know when he wills to come. (it is wrong. It should be "I don't know when he will will come")
    "I don't know when he comes" might mean, for example, "He comes by once a week, but I'm not sure which day."

    It has to be "when he will come" because "will" in its auxiliary function is never conjugated.
     

    se16teddy

    Senior Member
    English - England
    - When does he arrive? Is it tomorrow? :tick:
    - I don't know when he arrives. :tick:

    I am not sure why I don't feel entirely comfortable with replacing "arives" with "comes" in the last sentence.
     

    yakor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    It has to be "when he will come" because "will" in its auxiliary function is never conjugated.
    What about
    - I don't know when he will be willing to come.
    WILLING TO DO SOMETHING used to show that someone is willing or ready to do something
     

    The Newt

    Senior Member
    English - US
    "I don't know when he will be willing to come" is fine, but now you're adding an element that wasn't in your original examples.
     

    yakor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    "I don't know when he will be willing to come" is fine, but now you're adding an element that wasn't in your original examples.
    Yes, of course. Don't mind.
    But when the when-clause is used as the adverbial modifier, the future time is expressed with the present indefinite tense.
    -When he comes, we will open this bottle.
     

    Vronsky

    Senior Member
    Russian - Russia
    But when the when-clause is used as the adverbial modifier, the future time is expressed with the present indefinite tense.
    So, what does this adverbial modifier modify in the sentence "I don't know when he will come"?
     

    Steven David

    Senior Member
    General American English USA - Standard
    Hi!
    What is the correct sentences?
    -I don't know when he will come. (in the future time)
    -I don't know when he comes. (in the future time)
    -I don't know when he wills to come. (when he is going to come)

    The first two are correct. It depends on context.

    wills to - Remove the /s/ from "will" and remove "to", and then the third sentence is correct. However, the first sentence and the third second are the same after we correct the third sentence.

    I don't know when he comes here. < This could refer to his daily schedule.

    I don't know when he will come here again. < This means that the speaker has no idea, and it's up in the air. Who knows what will happen? Maybe, he'll come here again, and, maybe, he won't.
     

    Hermione Golightly

    Senior Member
    British English
    "I don't know when he will be willing to come"
    :confused::cross:

    This would require an extraordinary context and it's so unlikely I regard it as incorrect. All sentences require context especially when it comes to expressions of time.
    One of the more common verb forms used in what appears to be the OP context, is the present continuous which we often use to express a planned future.

    - I don't know when he's coming. He hasn't told me yet. I'll let you know when he tells me.

    It's best not to confuse 'will future' with 'being willing' or 'wanting' and never use them in the same sentence.
     

    Hermione Golightly

    Senior Member
    British English
    But when the when-clause is used as the adverbial modifier, the future time is expressed with the present indefinite tense.
    -When he comes, we will open this bottle.
    Is 'present indefinite' another term for 'will -future'? We use the 'will-future' to talk about intentions.

    This has strayed from the OP topic.
    I don't know when he's coming
    is not an adverbial.
     

    Vronsky

    Senior Member
    Russian - Russia
    :confused: Which one? You have confused two different sentences. In this sentence there is no adverbial modifier.
    Okay, then why did you mention "adverbial modifier" at all, if your example sentences in the OP do not have it?
     

    yakor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    The first two are correct. It depends on context.

    wills to - Remove the /s/ from "will" and remove "to", and then the third sentence is correct. However, the first sentence and the third second are the same after we correct the third sentence.

    I don't know when he comes here. < This could refer to his daily schedule.

    I don't know when he will come here again. < This means that the speaker has no idea, and it's up in the air. Who knows what will happen? Maybe, he'll come here again, and, maybe, he won't.
    What does mean "the third second"? How do you distinguish the meanings of "will" in "I don't know when he will come"? (future time and be willing to do)?
    Is any difference between "to be willing to" and "will" in meaning?(will is modal here)
    Is 'present indefinite' another term for 'will -future'? We use the 'will-future' to talk about intentions.
    I meant not "will-future" when saying "the present indefinite tense". In the main clause it is "will-future" while in the subordinate adverbial clause it is "the present indefinite tense".
    What do you mean by "We use the 'will-future' to talk about intentions."? Do you mean that every future action is an intention?
    This has strayed from the OP topic. is not an adverbial.
    But I didn't say that "when he is coming" in " I don't know when he's coming" is an adverbial. It is the object here.
    I said that "when he is coming" ( when he will come) is an adverbial in " When he comes, we will open this bottle." See the post #8


    Okay, then why did you mention "adverbial modifier" at all, if your example sentences in the OP do not have it?
    You need to read the post #8 to answer this question.
    But if we use conjunction "if" instead of "when" then we shouldn't use "will"?
    You could still use "will". But to avoid the misunderstanding you may use "is coming" as " the future time"
    There is two possible meanings of
    "if he will come"-the future tense and the intention.
     

    Steven David

    Senior Member
    General American English USA - Standard
    What does mean "the third second"? How do you distinguish the meanings of "will" in "I don't know when he will come"? (future time and be willing to do)?
    Is any difference between "to be willing to" and "will" in meaning?(will is modal here)
    1) That was a mistake. "Second" has to be "sentence", not "second".

    2) There are two main ideas with "will".

    I) prediction

    II) willingness

    I don't know when he will come. < This means that someone cannot predict when he will come.

    He says that he will come to the meeting. < This means that he wants to come to the meeting, which is to say that he is willing to come to the meeting.

    I'll think about it. < This means that I'm willing to think about it. I want to think about it.

    I don't think that he will be coming to the meeting. < I predict that he will not come to the meeting.

    Other ideas underlying the use of "will" are spontaneous decisions, promises, determination, volition, and volunteering.
     

    yakor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    I don't think that he will be coming to the meeting. < I predict that he will not come to the meeting.

    Other ideas underlying the use of "will" are spontaneous decisions, promises, determination, volition, and volunteering.
    It seems that you gives additional meanings to the verb "will", that always means a "future time". Of course, it depends from the main verb, which is to explain its additional meaning. Are any cases when "will" is pure future? (just the statement of fact that the action will be in the future.) Is it the cases when the subject is inanimate?
    "I predict that he will not come to the meeting." What does "will be coming to meeting" mean in sense of "will"? And what is the difference between it and "will come to the meeting"
     
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    se16teddy

    Senior Member
    English - England
    Are any cases when "will" is pure future?
    I suppose that statements about the future are always probabilities, so they can always be interpreted as using "will" in the sense of "probability", and so not in the sense of pure futurity.

    However, I think that some people (not me) use "would" to refer to a pure future-in-the past: Fred married Mary in 2002. They would divorce only two years later. So I think that for some people the functions of will must include the idea of pure futurity.

    English is influenced by a number of languages that have a proper future tense, and some speakers, families and regions must have taken that notion on board!
    "I predict that he will not come to the meeting." What does "will be coming to meeting" mean in sense of "will"? And what is the difference between it and "will come to the meeting"
    This question is very far from the original question. We can't discuss all the ways to refer to the future in a single thread.
     
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    Steven David

    Senior Member
    General American English USA - Standard
    It seems that you gives additional meanings to the verb "will", that always means a "future time". Of course, it depends from the main verb, hot to explain its additional meaning. Are any cases when "will" is pure future? (just the statement of fact that the action will be in the future.)
    No, I do not give additional meaning to "will". This is what "will" means. This also includes reasons and underlying reasons that someone uses "will".

    "Will" is not the default word for future time in English.

    "Will" is a modal verb with meaning. "Will" does not mean the future any more than any other modal verb such as "can".

    Both of these sentences have to do with future time.

    I don't know when he will come.

    I don't know when he can come.

    These two sentences are also future time.

    He'll be here tomorrow at 12. < I predict with certainty that he arrives tomorrow at 12.

    He can be here tomorrow at 12. < His schedule permits him to be here tomorrow at 12. Therefore, he can be here tomorrow at 12.

    I can't be there on Monday.

    How about tomorrow?

    Yes, I can do that. I'll be there tomorrow at 12. < This is a spontaneous decision. We can also call it a promise to be there tomorrow at 12. The speaker is also willing to be there tomorrow at 12. The speaker wants to be there tomorrow at 12 because the speaker can be there tomorrow at 12.

    Context and a time word, or a time phrase, such as "tomorrow" tell us that this is future time, not "will".

    I might be a few minutes late tomorrow. Please, don't start the meeting without me. <

    In the above sentence, we use "might". "Might" means the future just as much as "will" does.
     

    yakor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Context and a time word, or a time phrase, such as "tomorrow" tell us that this is future time, not "will".
    There's a difference between "I must see him today as soon as he will come" and "I must see him today as soon as he comes."
    The night will go down soon. "will" is the pure future, isn't it?
    I must see him today as soon as the night goes down. (it is the only one acceptable case, because "will" can't have any other meanings with thing-subject except the future time)
     

    heypresto

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I must see him today as soon as he will come. :cross:

    I must see him today as soon as he comes. :confused: I think you mean 'I must see him as soon as he arrives.'

    The night will go down soon. :confused: I don't know what this means. Do you mean 'It will be getting dark soon'?

    I must see him today as soon as the night goes down. :confused:
     

    Steven David

    Senior Member
    General American English USA - Standard
    There's a difference between "I must see him today as soon as he will come" and "I must see him today as soon as he comes."
    The night will go down soon. "will" is the pure future, isn't it?
    I must see him today as soon as the night goes down. (it is the only one acceptable case, because "will" can't have any other meanings with thing-subject except the future time)
    No, we cannot say that "will" is the "pure future".

    There's a package for us at the front desk.

    Okay, I'll go get it. < That means right now, not in the future.

    He will always find the answer when he doesn't have it. < This refers to somebody's general habit in the same way that simple present does.

    By now, you'll have already found out that we have narrowed it down to three candidates for this position. < This means that they found out in the past.

    We are customers, and we will not put up with your poor attitude just because you're a doctor. < This is "will" for refusal and determination. It refers to all time starting with the present. We could presume that this was true in the past, and, obviously, it's true in the future. And it's definitely true right now.

    ________________

    For your example sentences, I would review the post before mine, which is heypresto's.
     

    yakor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Do you mean 'It will be getting dark soon'?
    Yes, I mean this. In this case "will" is the pure future.
    -When it got dark come to the club.
    You wouldn't say "when it will get dark, come to the club" because "will" in this case is the future time, but the future indefinite tense is not used in the adverbial when-clauses.
     
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    yakor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    It was your sentence, see post #18.
    My sentence " I must see him today as soon as he will come."
    Not my sentence "I must see him today as soon as he comes"
    In the post #18, they both were OK. I don't get why you marked them as wrong and as unclear.
     

    Hermione Golightly

    Senior Member
    British English
    We use the simple present to talk about future time in the 'when' clause in this sort of sentence. We also use the simple present to talk about schedules and itineraries.
    There are numerous uses for 'will'. One is to talk about intentions which are of course for future actions or activity.
     

    yakor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    I was referring to the sentence "I must see him today as soon as he will come." in your post #18. I marked it wrong because it is wrong.
    But in the post #19, it is correct," There's a difference between "I must see him today as soon as he will come" and "I must see him today as soon as he comes." In the former the issue is when he will be willing to come."
     

    yakor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    We use the simple present to talk about future time in the 'when' clause in this sort of sentence. We also use the simple present to talk about schedules and itineraries.
    Yes, I know it.
    There are numerous uses for 'will'. One is to talk about intentions which are of course for future actions or activity.
    When it is intention, is it still considered as future time?
    "I must see him today as soon as he will come" is ok?
     
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