I have always wanted to go to Miyajima

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  • Raroofu

    Banned
    USA, English
    zutto/zutto mae miyajima ni ikitakatta?

    Thanks
    What you are saying in Japanese is somewhat different than what you are saying in English. I would translate this Japanese as, "a long, long time ago I wanted to go to Miyajima".

    To achieve the present perfect in Japanese you need "mae kara" + present tense ("miyajima ni ikitai"), but here you should use ikitagatteru (reduced form of ikitagatte iru). So it becomes, "mukashi kara miyajima ni ikitagatteru".

    [~tagatte iru added to the stem of a verb means to (be) want(ing) to do (whatever the action of that verb is).]

    HTH
     

    ty604

    Senior Member
    English
    ok thanks

    but 'mukashi kara miyajima ni ikitagatteru' does not imply 'always' does it?

    [I have always wanted to go to Miyajima.]

    your sentence means 'since a long time ago I've been wanting to go to Miyajima'.

    One could say it implies always but maybe the person has wanted to go but not always thinking about it.

    In my case I have 'always' wanted to go. I know it's semantics but I want to make sure.


    Thanks
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    To achieve the present perfect in Japanese you need "mae kara" + present tense ("miyajima ni ikitai"), but here you should use ikitagatteru (reduced form of ikitagatte iru). So it becomes, "mukashi kara miyajima ni ikitagatteru".
    Hello Raroofu,

    To achieve the present perfect for Japanese adjectives, you need -ta only (ikitakatta). Suffixed form tagatteiru (or tagatteru) is used in third person only. It implies "someone shows it in his attitude that he wants to go" and is to be avoided in reference to people to whom you are supposed to accord respect.

    ok thanks

    but 'mukashi kara miyajima ni ikitagatteru' does not imply 'always' does it?

    [I have always wanted to go to Miyajima.]

    your sentence means 'since a long time ago I've been wanting to go to Miyajima'.

    One could say it implies always but maybe the person has wanted to go but not always thinking about it.

    In my case I have 'always' wanted to go. I know it's semantics but I want to make sure.


    Thanks
    I'd express "always" by zutto. No other particles are necessary:
    zutto Miyajima-ni ikitakatta.
     

    ty604

    Senior Member
    English
    Hello Raroofu,

    To achieve the present perfect for Japanese adjectives, you need -ta only (ikitakatta). Suffixed form tagatteiru (or tagatteru) is used in third person only. It implies "someone shows it in his attitude that he wants to go" and is to be avoided in reference to people to whom you are supposed to accord respect.



    I'd express "always" by zutto. No other particles are necessary:
    zutto Miyajima-ni ikitakatta.
    Cool so I was right!!! woohoo!!
     

    Raroofu

    Banned
    USA, English
    Hello Raroofu,

    To achieve the present perfect for Japanese adjectives, you need -ta only (ikitakatta). Suffixed form tagatteiru (or tagatteru) is used in third person only. It implies "someone shows it in his attitude that he wants to go" and is to be avoided in reference to people to whom you are supposed to accord respect.


    I'd express "always" by zutto. No other particles are necessary:
    zutto Miyajima-ni ikitakatta.
    Hola, Flaminius,

    So it is used like らしい? Then you would never say "~たがってるらしい as that would be redundant? Thank you very much for the kind explanation. My wife and kids are very bad about never correcting my Japanese, and I really appreciate having it corrected, otherwise I'll continue making the same mistakes forever. I am sure I have often used ~たがってる in first person without realizing that it should only be third person. I suppose it is because this idea of present perfect is so wispy for me in Japanese.

    How do you distinguish between "I have always wanted to go there" and "(for a long time) I used to want to go there"?
    ずっと行きたかった vs 昔ずっと行きたかった(行きたかっていた)?I assume it is not wrong to say 昔から行きたかった to mean "I have always wanted to go there". But is it also possible to say 昔から行きたい?今まで私は「ずっと行きたかった」聞こえたら相手が「昔ずっと行きたかった」と言いたかったと思ってた。

    addendum (very late at night)

    Flaminius,

    連休のため息子が大学から帰って来て今夜晩くまでビリヤードやりに行った時に私がこれに対して彼の意見をきいた。「昔から行きたい」と言ったら必ず「と思った」を足して欲しいって。私が「行きたかった」を言われたらずっとそれが今までの話しじゃないと感じてたを言うと彼が大笑いした。
    So I guess I have to re-educate my mental mapping on the present perfect. Thanks for the help!

    second addendum (mid-afternoon)

    息子がも起きてるからも一回詳しく聞きなおした。He told me that the details were hard for him to explain. I suggested this might be because he was 理系 instead of 文系 and he laughed and said I should probably ask a teacher instead of a university student, because I would probably not get a good answer from a student.

    So, I want to say we are really fortunate to have someone who can explain this so well to us. Thank you!!

    Anyway, his suggestions were that ずっと行きたかった could be used whether you had been there before or not, that would be determined by context, probably by what was said just preceding this statement. If you had, something like 最近行っていないから。 If you hadn't something like すごくきれいと言われてるから。 Anyway, for "I used to want to go" he suggested using ずっと行きたいと思ってた。 For him, even ずっと行きたいと思った sounded like "I used to want to". Is there something about 思う that affects the statement? For me it all gets a little too persnickety.
     

    ty604

    Senior Member
    English
    Close, but no cigar. You said "zutto/zutto mae miyajima ni ikitakatta", and that means "Long, long ago I wanted to go to Miyajima". ("zutto" is not the same as "zutto mae" -- if you use "mae" you would have to use "kara".) Best wishes in your language studies.
    Yes, the "/" means "or". So one of my 2 choices was correct. I said "zutto/zutto mae" because I didn't know which one was correct. So the first option I said "zutto miyajima ni ikitakatta" was correct.

    Whereas your "mukashi kara miyajima ni ikitagatteru" was totally different.

    Thanks for your help though ;)
     

    Raroofu

    Banned
    USA, English
    Yes, the "/" means "or". So one of my 2 choices was correct. I said "zutto/zutto mae" because I didn't know which one was correct. So the first option I said "zutto miyajima ni ikitakatta" was correct.
    Ah, I get it! Sorry to be so thick, mate. I thought you were saying "zutto, zutto". As we who are the progeny of the convicts down under say, "Good on ya, mate!" (Congratulations!)

    With the way you're attacking it, you'll be speaking like a native in no time. Keep up the good work!
     

    Flaminius

    coclea mod
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    So it is used like らしい? Then you would never say "~たがってるらしい as that would be redundant?
    らしい and そうだ are more standard way of referring to someone wanting to do something. Japanese regards adjectives of volition and emotion (want, desire, sadness, happiness) as purely subjective reference. That is, they are usually for the first person only (and for the second person in question sentences too) because one cannot experience the desire, sadness or happiness of others. The best one can do is to sense, infer or sympathize with the other's emotion, hence the assisting elements for the third person; らしい (推量, conjecture); そうだ (伝聞, relative).

    How do you distinguish between "I have always wanted to go there" and "(for a long time) I used to want to go there"?
    ずっと行きたかった vs 昔ずっと行きたかった(行きたっていた)?I assume it is not wrong to say 昔から行きたかった to mean "I have always wanted to go there". But is it also possible to say 昔から行きたい?今まで私は「ずっと行きたかった」聞こえたら相手が「昔ずっと行きたかった」と言いたかったと思ってた。

    addendum (very late at night)

    Flaminius,

    連休のため息子が大学から帰って来て今夜晩くまでビリヤードやりに行った時に私がこれに対して彼の意見をきいた。「昔から行きたい」と言ったら必ず「と思った」を足して欲しいって。私が「行きたかった」を言われたらずっとそれが今までの話しじゃないと感じてたを言うと彼が大笑いした。
    So I guess I have to re-educate my mental mapping on the present perfect. Thanks for the help!

    second addendum (mid-afternoon)

    息子がも起きてるからも一回詳しく聞きなおした。He told me that the details were hard for him to explain. I suggested this might be because he was 理系 instead of 文系 and he laughed and said I should probably ask a teacher instead of a university student, because I would probably not get a good answer from a student.
    I am also getting too confused, but to wade through grammatical functions, -ta is best understood as mandatory for any statement that was true in the past.

    一年前から行きたかった
    I had the desire of visiting there last year. This year (and now), I want to visit as well. The postposition -kara indicates that the desire has started a year ago and continues up until now. The adverb ずっと also has the same function as 一年前から —this time the desire started and continues from an indefinite point in the past.

    昔行きたかった
    It simply means I wanted to visit in the past. Context may choose, "I used to want to visit" as a better translation.

    昔ずっと行きたかった
    This refers to a continued desire in the past. Implications are that the speaker does not want to visit there any more, having actually been there or simply stopped wanting.
     
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