I like the baroque composers.

drcab

Senior Member
Hello everyone,
I am finding it difficult to know when to add the letter h to masculine plurals like this. I have learnt that one does add it for the feminine adjectives, but it seems somewhat more variable for the masculine cases even if very many do not have the "h" added.

"Mi piacciono i compositori barocchi", o "barocci" o sarebbe meglio scrivere "del barocco"?

Thank you
 
  • Giorgio Spizzi

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Hullo, dr.
    "Mi piacciono i compositori barocchi" is immaculate.
    GS
    PS If I may add, the general rule--though there are exceptions to it-- is that the plural should keep the same final sound of the word in the singular. I our case, "barocco" /barokko/ changes to /barokki/, but when you pronounce "ki" and "ke" you have to write "chi" and "che", which means that the "h" is inserted just so that the letter "c" is pronounced /k/.
    GS
     

    Giorgio Spizzi

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Hullo, dr.
    I don't think that the differences are in the area of gender. Rather, it's the "stress pattern" of the word that counts -- of course , we're talking of words anding in "-co" and "-go". There's a tendency for words with stress on the penultimate to keep the velar sound of "c" and "g" (dràgo, draghi; làgo, laghi, etc.), but amìco, amìci, etc.
    Words stressed on the antepenultimate, on the other hand, tend to shift to the "affricate" sound of "c" and "g": ie rùstico, cìnico, sìndaco, etc. become rustici, cinici, sindaci. There're a lot more rules-- this is just an appetizer.
    Bestest.
    GS
     

    CZac

    Senior Member
    English
    Hullo, dr.
    I don't think that the differences are in the area of gender. Rather, it's the "stress pattern" of the word that counts -- of course , we're talking of words anding in "-co" and "-go". There's a tendency for words with stress on the penultimate to keep the velar sound of "c" and "g" (dràgo, draghi; làgo, laghi, etc.), but amìco, amìci, etc.
    Words stressed on the antepenultimate, on the other hand, tend to shift to the "affricate" sound of "c" and "g": ie rùstico, cìnico, sìndaco, etc. become rustici, cinici, sindaci. There're a lot more rules-- this is just an appetizer.
    Bestest.
    GS

    Mi sembra che le consonante vociate tengono i loro suoni vociati (nota drago è vociato, ma amico non è vociato). Anche le consonante geminate (le consonante doppia) cui tengono i loro suoni come barocco -> barocchi.

    If that doesn't make sense in Italian, then here's my explanation in English:

    When the final consonant is voiced such as /g/ in drago, the plosive sound is maintained. Geminate sounds such as /kk/ barocco also maintain their final sound, such as in barocco -> barocchi/barocche or even affricate sounds such as in capriccio -> capricci.

    This means that since a word like amico ends in a final plosive sound that is both voiceless and not geminated (that is, /k/) and is preceded by a close unrounded frontal vowel (which is pretty much only /i/ in Italian), it will change to an affricate (amico -> amici, or in IPA /amiko/ -> /amitʃi/). Other examples include calorico -> calorici. Nota bene that words with a final voiceless, ungeminated consonant (/k/) which are preceded by other vowels such as buco, bruco, and eco will maintain their plosive sound and become buchi, bruchi, and echi respectively.

    So far (which isn't saying much!) I haven't found any exceptions to these rules.

    Simple version:
    /i/ + /k/ = /
    tʃi/ (amico -> amici)
    anything else + /k/ = /ki/ (or the equivalent feminine version, /keɪ/)
    /g/ = /gi/ (or the equivalent feminine version, /g
    eɪ/)
     
    Last edited:

    pacariss

    Senior Member
    Italian
    So far (which isn't saying much!) I haven't found any exceptions to these rules.

    Simple version:
    /i/ + /k/ = /tʃi/ (amico -> amici)
    anything else + /k/ = /ki/ (or the equivalent feminine version, /keɪ/)
    /g/ = /gi/ (or the equivalent feminine version, /geɪ/)

    There are exceptions like:
    plico = plichi
    antico = antichi
    fico = fichi
    etc.
     

    CZac

    Senior Member
    English
    There are exceptions like:
    plico = plichi
    antico = antichi
    fico = fichi
    etc.

    Anticipo un po'. Spero che non ci sono molto più. (that should read 'I hope there aren't many more' -- like many phrases, I don't know how to render it clearly in Italian).
     
    Last edited:

    drcab

    Senior Member
    Thank you all very much. I think I have understood that and I shall discuss it with my teacher. In fact it was 'antichi' versus 'pratici' compared to 'antiche' and 'pratiche' that set me puzzling over it . As a beginner and a scientist by training I do try to see patterns that help me and I was wondering if there were one to find.
     

    pacariss

    Senior Member
    Italian
    There aren't many more, but in general when in the word ending in "ico" the accent falls on the "i" the plural form is with "chi"(ki)
    Even in this case though there is an exception like "nemico" = "nemici"
     
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