If he hadn't come by 6 o'clock, he won't come at all

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I./KG40_Razor

Senior Member
Russian
If he hadn't come by 6 o'clock, he won't come at all
I wonder, if it's correct to say so, because there is no scheme Past Perfect (in subordinate clause) + Future Indefinite (in principal clause) in Subjunctive Mood or complex sentenses of real condition (my textbook tells it's correct)
 
  • I./KG40_Razor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    It is a weird sentence. 'If he hadn't come' strongly suggests that he did come.
    Yes, if you consider it as an ordinary unreal condition Subjunctive Mood sentense. But 'If he hadn't come' strongly suggests that he did not come
    To be able to suggest an alternative, we need to know when the words are spoken: before six o'clock, or after?
    After, I suppose.
     

    boozer

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    Yes, if you consider it as an ordinary unreal condition Subjunctive Mood sentense. But 'If he hadn't come' strongly suggests that he did not come
    The subjunctive mood has nothing to do with this. A conditional sentence, even if it is a mixed conditional, is most of the time in the conditional mood.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_mood
    I wonder why so many people decide that something is in the subjunctive mood just based on the fact that a past-tense verb form is used...

    Again, 'if he hadn't come' strongly (I am not saying invariably) suggests that he did come.
     

    sound shift

    Senior Member
    English - England
    I agree with boozer that "if he hadn't come" suggests that he came. So, if the words were spoken after six o'clock and he came before six o'clock, the only meaningful continuation to If he hadn't come by six o'clock is: he wouldn't have come at all.

    Let's take the scenario where (1) it's gone six o'clock; (2) he hasn't come and (3) the speaker thinks he is not going to come. Two possibilities here are:
    If he was going to come, he would be here by now; and
    If he had been going to come, he would have got here/arrived by six.
     

    GandalfMB

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian - Yellow Beach
    Boozer is right, Razor :). It does suggest that he came. "If he hadn't come, I would have felt much better". He was there "he came" and let's say that he ruffled your feathers ;). I am not an expert, but I think you can say "If he doesn't come by 6 o'clock, he will not come". Do you want him to come or not, is up to you :).
     

    I./KG40_Razor

    Senior Member
    Russian
    boozer

    When we learn English grammar in Russia or Ukraine, we don't have any Conditional mood in our English grammar books. There are only 3 moods in English: the Indicative, the Imperative and the Subjunctive ;)

    Again, 'if he hadn't come' strongly (I am not saying invariably) suggests that he did come.
    I understand you. But as the author is Ukrainian, I think, that the meaning of the sentense should be 'As he hadn't come by 6 o'clock (action is completed before a definite moment in the past - so Past Perfect), it's very likely he won't (because we tell it now) come at all'. The case is as sound shift said
    Let's take the scenario where (1) it's gone six o'clock; (2) he hasn't come and (3) the speaker thinks he is not going to come.
    I think you can say "If he doesn't come by 6 o'clock, he will not come"
    At 5:55 I can, But at 6:05 I can't, and let's suppose it's 6:05 now
     
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    GandalfMB

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian - Yellow Beach
    Yes, that's before the deadline :). Otherwise follow sound shift's advise "If he was going to come, he would be here by now". You could say that at 6:05. Next morning, you might say "If he had been going to come, he would have come by six" as sound shift has pointed out or "If he had had the intention of coming, he would have come by six". The latter is wordy and I presume that native speakers will lynch me because of it, but I don't think it is wrong.
     

    boozer

    Senior Member
    Bulgarian
    I see. In that case maybe that author should have said 'If he didn't come by 6 (= given the fact that; if you say so), he will not come at all'.
     

    sound shift

    Senior Member
    English - England
    "If he had had the intention of coming, he would have come by six". The latter is wordy and I presume that native speakers will lynch me because of it, but I don't think it is wrong.
    Well, "If he had had ..." is of course good grammar, but "If he had had the intention of coming" is not native-speaker English. It would sound 'normal' with the verb, though: "If he had intended to come, ...". So consider yourself 50% lynched.
     
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