I'm Dutch if...

Discussion in 'Italian-English' started by Tez_ja, Nov 19, 2006.

  1. Tez_ja

    Tez_ja Member

    polacco Polonia
    Cosa significa: "I'm Dutch if...."? Pensavo: "Non sono più io se..." ma mi hanno detto, che non è cosi.
    Se potete spiegarmi sarò molto contenta. Sarebbe bello anchè con qualche esempio ( una frase completa).
     
  2. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    Sì che sarebbe bello una frase completa!
     
  3. Tez_ja

    Tez_ja Member

    polacco Polonia
    Solo che io ho soltanto queste parole che ho scritto la su. Voglio sapere: queste parole possono significare: "Non sono più io se..."?
     
  4. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    Well, you started with the English, "I'm Dutch if..." which is an expression I've never heard or read anywhere, so I don't know what it means or how it translates. I hoped to get a sense of it from the rest of the sentence. Sorry.

    I only found 20 Google results, but one of them was right in our own backyard, from a dear old friend of WR.
     
  5. Tez_ja

    Tez_ja Member

    polacco Polonia
    Guarda, ho trovato queste parole nella terza lezione d'inglese. Ho appena cominciato studiare ( per sfortuna da sola) e già una bella sorpresa.

    Grazie.

    Grazie Isp di questo link.

    Ma adesso, poi spiegarmi in italiano ( o polacco) questa fraze:

    I'm Dutch if we are not hearty eaters..."

    Sarei molto grata.
     
  6. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    Purtroppo non sono ancora riuscita a capire il senso.
     
  7. Mark Valsi Member

    Pasadena CA
    ENGLISH
    I don't know how to explain it very well in Italian, but it is somewhat of an ironic expression, e.g.

    "I'm Dutch if OHIO STATE is not the best college football team in america"!

    in altre parole, non e vero ! ????
     
  8. SweetSoulSister Senior Member

    American English
    It's a little silly, but many people say,

    "I'm a monkey's uncle if..."

    I haven't ever heard of "I'm Dutch if..." but I guess if it was clearly a non-Dutch person saying it, I guess it could work :)
     
  9. Tez_ja

    Tez_ja Member

    polacco Polonia
    Ho capito.
    Grazie, siete bravissimi.
     
  10. Mark Valsi Member

    Pasadena CA
    ENGLISH
    I'm a monkey's uncle, and I'm Dutch express similar ideas.

    However, in this day of Political correctness, one should not use "i'm dutch" as you may offend some one who has a thin skin !

    Tot Ziens

    Dutch for arrivederci
     
  11. Tez_ja

    Tez_ja Member

    polacco Polonia
    Non penso di usare questa frase. Solo, che l'ho incontrata nella mia lezione d'inglese, allora volevo sapere cosa significa .

    Grazie d'avvertimento e scusa dei errori. La mia conoscenza della lingua italianai non è ancora tanto profonda ( l'inglese invece, appena
    ho cominciato).
     
  12. laurentius67 Senior Member

    Toscana Italy
    Italian Italy
    :)
     
  13. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    "Many people say"? I haven't heard it in years (maybe never in person, come to think of it).
     
  14. Tez_ja

    Tez_ja Member

    polacco Polonia
    Grazie. Si vede che ho ancora tanto da imparare.
     
  15. mateintwo Senior Member

    Sweden, Former resident USA
    One say at least in New York to go Dutch = sharing the bill in the restaurant (come in Italiano si dice facciamo alla romana).

    Person A meeting B outside the restaurant says: Let’s go Dutch and person B then says
    I'm Dutch if we are not hearty eaters.

    E come dire in Italiano: Io sono romano se non mangiamo troppo

    Che ne dite? Fa senso?
    Why they would use this obscure phrase in an English text book is another question?
     
  16. Tez_ja

    Tez_ja Member

    polacco Polonia

    Si, questo ho trovato nella stessa lezione d'inglese. L'hanno spiegato nello stesso modo come hai spiegato tu: "fare alla romana".

    Ma frase "I'm Dtch if..." hanno spiegato cosi, come ho scritto prima. E, secondo me, non ha senso. Ma adesso, dopo tutti questi spiegazi, capisco. Non so come dire in italiano, ma da noi si dice ( più o meno): "posso morire se non è cosi" ( o una cosa simile)

    Questa frase hanno scritto come l'esempio di usare la parola "Dutch". Non solo come nome di una nazione, ma anche come modo di dire...
     
  17. mgc New Member

    Los Angeles
    Switzerland
    If you go out to a restaurant you can say: I'm Dutch if you are.
    Meaning I'll pay my bill if you will. Facciamo alla romana.
     
  18. Tez_ja

    Tez_ja Member

    polacco Polonia
    No, "Facciamo alla romana" = "To go Dutch"

    Invece: "I'm Duch if..." è una cosa diversa.
     
  19. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    Common error, but worth correcting. :)
    As explained by a respected member and friend...
     
  20. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    I'm not sure where you are suggesting that would be said, but I have to point out that in AE, that is not a natural construction, or use of the expression "going Dutch."
     
  21. Mark Valsi Member

    Pasadena CA
    ENGLISH
    TGC,

    I THINK YOU ARE INCORRECT !!
    This would never be said by American English speakers

    If you go out to a restaurant you can say: I'm Dutch if you are.
    Meaning I'll pay my bill if you will. Facciamo alla romana.


    What you would say is, "Let's go Dutch."
     
  22. mateintwo Senior Member

    Sweden, Former resident USA
    The problem is not that I or mgc are trying to come up with variations on “going Dutch” to find an application how “I am Dutch if” could be used (although agreed not the common way of saying it) but that TEZ-JA claims it means something else in English which unfortunately no English speaking person seems to know.
     
  23. Poianone

    Poianone Senior Member

    Udine, Italy
    Italian, Italy
    Could it be that in the phrase there has been missed in? I found that "in Dutch" means "in trouble or disfavor".

    EDIT: on Merriam-Webster On-line dictionary there are these entries for dutch, hope it helps!
     
  24. mateintwo Senior Member

    Sweden, Former resident USA
    Must admit I never heard about the expression in Dutch but I also found it on other online dictionaries as meaning in trouble or in disfavor so I think you must be right the original phrase omitted the in.
     
  25. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English


    I didn't write that post for your or mgc's benefit, but for the people who read posts to learn new expressions. I felt (and apparently Mark Valsi felt similarly) it needed to be pointed out that the usage in that post was not correct.

    I have also heard of "in Dutch," good call, Poianone!
     
  26. mateintwo Senior Member

    Sweden, Former resident USA
    Isp: Your answer to mgc was controlled in tone and not at all like Mark Valsi who did the equivalent of screaming (capital letters and !). I certainly knew it is not a normal way to say go Dutch but since the expression is common one can take liberties and say it differently in order to be witty. Only a “language drilling sergeant” (and I’m not referring to you) could be so rigid to say a phrase must be said in one way only. Mcg who is non-English seemed to understand my post with guess/assumption that is could be a play on going Dutch. Of course when we posted no credible alternatives had been presented but we now finally seem to agree in was missing n the original phrase.
     
  27. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    (ah well "easy come, easy go" with the compliment...;)) I guess I'm a language drill sergeant after all. Ripeto, non intendevo il mio post né per te né per mgc. Ma quando due o tre parole diventano una frase fatta, sì che c'è un solo modo giusto per dirle e farsi capire (come drill sergeant ;))
     
  28. Panpan

    Panpan Senior Member

    Sawbridgeworth, UK
    England, English
    The phrase '...or I'm a Dutchman' (meaning x is true, and if it is not true then I am something I am not), comes (I think) from a George Elliot novel, I think it is 'The Mill on the Floss'.

    (I've now done a Search - it was Mill on the Floss. The phrase seems to be still fairly well used judging from search results).

    This phrase was in fairly common use, and then was partly replaced by '.... or I'm a Chinaman'.

    I would understand 'I'm Dutch if...' as meaning the same as '...or I'm a Dutchman' (just phrased in reverse), and in my opinion, it probably has nothing to do with 'going Dutch'.

    Panpan
     
  29. lsp

    lsp Senior Member

    NY
    US, English
    Hate to be picayune, but I scanned the first few pages. Some are about actually being Dutch, some were about another expression (a Dutchman's uncle) and some were querying it - but not actually using it in context. My advice to those studying English, especially colloquilaisms: I'd steer clear!
     
  30. mateintwo Senior Member

    Sweden, Former resident USA
    We risk soon being in Dutch with the moderators if we continue off-topic discussions. I elected the word drilling to emphasize the act of drilling (perverse enjoyment while doing it) but again here is a case of not using the most common form (and according to you always the wrong way). I guess we are at odds what liberties you are allowed when forming phrases in English. But what us worry?
     
  31. Alxmrphi Senior Member

    Reykjavík, Ísland
    UK English
    There's only been one Brit to answer this question, and I am not 100% of the meaning, though I know it's not "going Dutch", also badly phrased, but I assume it to be British, seeing as we're so close to the Netherlands, but anyway, examples:

    "If she is over 65 then I'm a Dutch"
    "If you payed under 5K for that car then I'm Dutch"

    In a sense of, "that isn't possible, otherwise I'm Dutch", like a bet, but not a bet, because you won't suddenly turn Dutch lol.

    A few UK phrases use Dutch lol, I bet it'd confuse the Americans.
     
  32. Panpan

    Panpan Senior Member

    Sawbridgeworth, UK
    England, English
    I'm not suggesting non-native speakers should use the phrases, they are really only worth knowing for comprehension.

    By the way: the Oxford Concise Dictionary, 8th edn 1992 reprint has:

    'I'm a Dutchman'. expression of disbelief or refusal.

    Which settles it. Or I'm a Chinaman (which I could be, with a name like Panpan - it's the diminutive form of 'tiger' in Mandarin i.e. 'little tiger', but actually that's just co-incidence. It's also a marine distress signal).

    Panpan
     
  33. se16teddy

    se16teddy Senior Member

    London but from Yorkshire
    English - England
    I agree with Panpan. I don't know the expression 'I'm Dutch if...', but I am familiar with the expression 'If (proposition) then I'm a Dutchman' (spoken by someone who is not a Dutchman, meaning that the proposition is untrue). This site http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/funny_old_game/1496657.stm includes the sentence 'If England qualify for the World Cup, let alone do well, then I'm a Dutchman!'
     
  34. awanzi Senior Member

    Gent - Oost-vlaanderen
    Italy, Italian
    I heard that when somebody speaks in an uncomprehensible way (or a difficult language) they say: That's Dutch (or something).
    (Like we say "é arabo")

    Is that true?
     
  35. se16teddy

    se16teddy Senior Member

    London but from Yorkshire
    English - England
    I think you're referring to double Dutch. http://www.wordreference.com/definition/double dutch
     
  36. awanzi Senior Member

    Gent - Oost-vlaanderen
    Italy, Italian
  37. se16teddy

    se16teddy Senior Member

    London but from Yorkshire
    English - England
    Yes, it is. Maybe 'That really is double Dutch' would be a slightly more idiomatic emphasis.
     
  38. GavinW Senior Member

    Italy
    British English
    Or: "He said something that sounded like double Dutch".
     
  39. Suehil

    Suehil Medemod

    Tillou, France
    British English
    I think the original expression is, "... or I'm a Dutchman" e.g. 'It will rain tomorrow or I'm a Dutchman', meaning that you think it is certain. That one is fairly common, if a bit antiquated.
     
  40. cscarfo Senior Member

    Italy Italian
    Probably it is a just a way to mean that the first sentence is unreal or the fact cannot happen.
    In Italy it is common to say: "Se tu sei un buon automobilista, allora io sono Napoleone!!!" (or Einstein, or whoever).
    Ciao
     
  41. Tez_ja

    Tez_ja Member

    polacco Polonia
    Penso, che Tu abbia ragione.
     
  42. awanzi Senior Member

    Gent - Oost-vlaanderen
    Italy, Italian
    Purtroppo dalle mie parti usa una frase un pò meno elegante, ma che serve comunque a smentire la prima parte: "Se tu sei un buon automobilista, Cicciolina è vergine"...
     

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