in a way that=while/where?

Discussion in 'English Only' started by thetazuo, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. thetazuo

    thetazuo Senior Member

    China
    Chinese - China
    But it is not simply the case that education is revered by parents in emerging economies in a way that it is not by blasé parents in the west. If parents in countries such as Finland with high standards of living and high school performance scores appear more complacent, it’s perhaps because they can more or less trust their economies to offer relatively better life chances for their children and because the schools are rated highly.

    Source: it is not simply the case that?

    Hi. Does the bold part mean “where/while”?
    Thank you.
     
  2. Uncle Jack

    Uncle Jack Senior Member

    Cumbria, UK
    British English
    That is too sharp a distinction, I think (though it might be what the writer meant, but felt it too strong to put down in writing). What the words imply is that each set of parents has a way in which they revere education, but they are different. In this case, the addition of "it is not" shows that blasé parents in the west do not revere education to the same degree as the parents in emerging economies, but it does not (quite) say that they do not revere education at all.

    I have edited the second sentence.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  3. thetazuo

    thetazuo Senior Member

    China
    Chinese - China
    Thank you, Uncle Jack.
    Can I think this way?
    But it is not simply the case that education is revered by parents in emerging economies in a way that it is not by blasé parents in the west.
    =
    But it is not simply the case that education is revered by parents in emerging economies, but not in the same way that the education is revered by blasé parents in the west.

    Right?
     
  4. Uncle Jack

    Uncle Jack Senior Member

    Cumbria, UK
    British English
    I must have missed "it is not" when I replied earlier, and I have amended my earlier post.

    Your new rephrasing changes the emphasis entirely, which is probably my fault due to my original post.
    Where you have one group that really does [verb] something and another group that is somewhat less enthusiastic, when you describe this in a sentence using "in a way that", the first (really enthusiastic) group and the verb must come first, and the verb must not be repeated with the second (less enthusiastic) group.
    Where the degree to which the two groups do something is similar, but the way in which they do it is different, then you can (but don't have to) repeat the verb. Repeating the verb suggests the second group are more enthusiastic, or embody the more conventional use of the verb, so your sentence in post #3 suggests that parents in the west are more reverential towards education than parents in emerging economies.
     
  5. thetazuo

    thetazuo Senior Member

    China
    Chinese - China
    Thank you again. Then is this paraphrase OK now?
    But it is not simply the case that education is revered by parents in emerging economies, but not in the same way that it is by blasé parents in the west.
     
  6. Uncle Jack

    Uncle Jack Senior Member

    Cumbria, UK
    British English
    No, sorry. When you have something followed by "but", it suggests that whatever the something is, it isn't entirely or really the case:
    "I would like to go to Germany, but..." could mean "I wouldn't really like to go to Germany"​

    Your original alternative of "while/where" is far better than anything you have written since and, while it does present a sharper distinction that I think is warranted by the original, it does at least get the emphasis the right way round.
     
  7. thetazuo

    thetazuo Senior Member

    China
    Chinese - China
    Thank youz. I’m just influenced by this thread where PaulQ interpreted this structure this way.

    in a way that Catholicism was not (Please see post 2)

    I don’t understand why this paraphrase works for that sentence but it doesn’t work for my example?
     
  8. lingobingo

    lingobingo Senior Member

    London
    English - England
    … education is revered by parents in emerging economies in a way that it is not by blasé parents in the west.

    In the above example, “in a way that” could be replaced by “whereas” (= in contrast/comparison with the fact that). But that’s not always the case. Usually, when this phrase is used specifically to contrast something negative with something positive, its meaning is more literal:

    We believe in deep collaboration and cross-pollination of our groups, which allow us to innovate in a way that others cannot. (part of Apple’s mission statement)

    It will grab your reader’s attention in a way that boring passive voice sentences never can.

    Blackbirds are unusual in having a particular behavior that enables them to … prey on species in a way that others cannot.

    … first-hand experience enabled her to bring humour out of painful situations in a way that others could not.

    It’s important that my audience is clear on who I am, in a way that never mattered before.
     
  9. thetazuo

    thetazuo Senior Member

    China
    Chinese - China
    Thank you. So usually, how do we paraphrase this structure? Sorry, I can’t quite grasp its literal meaning.o_O
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
  10. lingobingo

    lingobingo Senior Member

    London
    English - England
    I’m not sure how to express its literal meaning other than “in a way that”!

    It refers to how something is done. You can look at it as saying: we can do it this way but they can’t.
     
  11. Uncle Jack

    Uncle Jack Senior Member

    Cumbria, UK
    British English
    Well, we don't. The original "in a way that" is fine.

    The literal meaning of "in a way" is straightforward, but it is the various ways in which the expression is used that causes problems.

    Literally, your sentence can be broken down as follows:
    education is revered by parents in emerging economies This is a straightforward statement
    in a way This acts as an adverb, modifying how education is revered. It is not revered in absolute terms, but only "in a (one particular) way (or manner)
    that it is not by blasé parents in the west This further explains "the way" (in which education is revered by parents in emerging economies), by saying it is not the same way that blase parents in the west revere education.​

    This suggests that each group has an equally valid way of revering education, just that they are different. "In a way that" can be used in exactly this way, where the verb (in this case) applies equally to the two groups. The trouble is that usually it isn't.

    PaulQ in the thread you linked to did put the two halves of the sentence on an equal footing (both Protestantism and Catholicism were male-dominated, but in different ways). Personally, I think the emphasis is not quite equal, but it is difficult to tell from a single sentence. In your example here, the two groups do not equally revere education, and it is clear (to me at any rate) that parents in emerging countries have a far greater reverence for education than parents in the west, but that is not to say that parents in the west have no reverence at all. How do I know this? Quite honestly, it is difficult to say. The pejorative adjective blasé certainly helps point towards this interpretation.

    Where the verb (or subject complement) does not apply equally to both groups, then the group it applies to most is usually the first. However, if the verb (or subject complement) appears after "in a way that" (either being repeated, or not appearing before "in a way that"), then this shows it is the second group to which the verb (or subject complement) applies the most.
     
  12. thetazuo

    thetazuo Senior Member

    China
    Chinese - China
    Thank you. I see.
    Thank you. But the following thing you’ve written says the verb (in this case) doesn’t apply equally to the two groups since “parents in emerging countries have a far greater reverence for education than parents in the west”.
    Is it a contradiction?
    But I can see your point now: when it comes to the structure “A+verb+in a way that+B(negative)”, usually the verb applies to both group (A and B), but not equally; They just differ in the degree to which the verb applies to the two groups.
    Right?
     
  13. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    No. "In a way that" here is meant literally. It means "how", but "how" would sound kind of awkward here.

    We could replace "in a way that" with "as" and keep the same meaning, but "in a way that" is more explicit.

    A "translation" of the whole sentence might help:

    But it is not simply the case that education is revered by parents in emerging economies in a way that it is not by blasé parents in the west.
    = "Compared with blasé parents in the west, parents in emerging economies may revere education differently, but this is not the whole story."

    "In a way" means "how", and "It is not simply the case that" means something like "Not only".
     
  14. Uncle Jack

    Uncle Jack Senior Member

    Cumbria, UK
    British English
    In my earlier post, I wrote
    The verb always applies to both groups and sometimes it applies equally to both, but often there is a difference in degree to which it applies to the two groups (and sometimes, as here, the difference in degree is considerable).
     
  15. thetazuo

    thetazuo Senior Member

    China
    Chinese - China
    Thank you both.
    I have read your reply in post 11 several times. You say “each group has an equally valid way of revering education“, but you also say the verb doesn’t apply to each group equally, since:
    Do I miss something?
     
  16. Uncle Jack

    Uncle Jack Senior Member

    Cumbria, UK
    British English
    Ah sorry. When I use "suggests" it does not mean it is actually true. The sentence construction suggests that each group has an equally valid way of revering education, and if you didn't know anything about how this type of sentence is used in practice, you could not really conclude anything different. Sometimes this would be the correct conclusion, and PaulQ certainly thought it was in the thread you linked to.

    However, I have come across this type of sentence many times before, and often the context makes it clear exactly what the writer is trying to say, so I know that it is often used to say that [whatever it is] applies more to the first group than the second. Sometimes a pointer is given, and we have one here in the adjective "blasé" applied to the second group. In itself this does not mean that parents in the west don't revere education, but "blasé" is a pejorative term and is enough in my mind to firmly tip the balance towards saying that their reverence is of a far lesser degree than parents in emerging economies.
     
  17. thetazuo

    thetazuo Senior Member

    China
    Chinese - China
    Thank you, Uncle Jack.
    Just to make certain I understand, I want to take one of the sentences in post 8 as an example for practice:
    I think this sentence means both “it” and boring passive voice sentences will grab the reader’s attention; just that the chances of “its” grabbing the readers’s attention are far better than boring passive voice sentences.
    Right?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  18. Uncle Jack

    Uncle Jack Senior Member

    Cumbria, UK
    British English
    Well, it isn't really the chances of grabbing the reader's attention, but the intensity with which it is grabbed. As with your original sentence, the writer has given an important clue that this is how it is to be interpreted by using the adjective "boring".
     
  19. thetazuo

    thetazuo Senior Member

    China
    Chinese - China
    Thank you. So how do you interpret this sentence?
     
  20. Uncle Jack

    Uncle Jack Senior Member

    Cumbria, UK
    British English
    Your sentence is fine till the semicolon, but then you want something like "just that "it" grabs the reader's attention far more strongly than passive voice sentences do.
     
  21. thetazuo

    thetazuo Senior Member

    China
    Chinese - China
    Thank you, Uncle Jack. I think I understand it now.
     
  22. PaulQ

    PaulQ Senior Member

    UK
    English - England
    In a way that (adv.) = in a manner or style that - modifying "revered"
    where = in which (adj.) -> this is inappropriate as it changes the meaning because "which" references "economies".
    while (adv.) = "yet, at the same time" -> this is a contrastive time phrase, not a manner phrase.
     

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