in San Sebastian, in a luxury shop, Louvre?

chobalsim

Senior Member
Korea, Korean
At seventeen he[*Balenciaga] went to Biarritz, across the border, to acquire French. By 1913, at age eighteen, he was learning the women's wear trade in San Sebastian, in a luxury shop, Louvre, where he became adept at fitting ladies and finding gowns for their personal requirements. Later, experts as well as customers marveled at the speed with which he went about his work.

Was he learning the trade in San Sebastian "and" in a luxury shop, Louvre??? I can't figure out the correlation among "San Sebastian", "in a luxury shop," and "Louvre." Is there a luxury shop in Louvre? That "Louvre" is the museum in Paris or is there a city or town Louvre in Spain, too? If "Louvre" is the museum how could he do fitting ladies or finding gowns there which seems like preparing a fashion show.
 
  • papillon

    Senior Member
    Russian (Ukraine)
    That's what I thought too. My confusion was with the comma. If Louvre is the name of the shop, wouldn't it be written without that comma: " learning the women's wear trade in San Sebastian, in a luxury shop <no comma> Louvre..."
     

    cuchuflete

    Senior Member
    EEUU-inglés
    Nouns and noun phrases used in apposition usually are separated by a comma. This, in itself, is a clue that what follows the comma offers a clarification or specification of what came before the comma.

    The disgraced president, R.M. Nixon, resigned from office.
     

    chobalsim

    Senior Member
    Korea, Korean
    Thank you so much both of you! Now, it's clear to me.
    But isn't it more natural to write "in a luxury shop, Louvre, in San Sebastian" than "in San Sebastian, in a luxury shop, Louvre?"
    I think the sentence is enough to make a confusion.
    Anyway, thank you again! :)
     

    cuchuflete

    Senior Member
    EEUU-inglés
    chobalsim said:
    But isn't it more natural to write "in a luxury shop, Louvre,in San Sebastian" than "in San Sebastian, in a luxury shop, Louvre?"
    I prefer your suggested word order. The original made me stop and think. It is not wrong, but it seems awkward.
     

    papillon

    Senior Member
    Russian (Ukraine)
    Nouns and noun phrases used in apposition usually are separated by a comma. This, in itself, is a clue that what follows the comma offers a clarification or specification of what came before the comma.
    The disgraced president, R.M. Nixon, resigned from office.
    Thanks for the explanation, Cuchuflete.
    Still, while I find the Nixon case perfectly natural, the use of an apposition-separating comma in the sentence in question somehow sounds a little add. For some reason, the comma gives me the impression that things are being enumerated rather than specified. This may be due in part to the fact that we have three level of location description, going from the city to type of business to the name of the shop.

    If we leave out the comma, is it still an apposition?
     

    cuchuflete

    Senior Member
    EEUU-inglés
    papillon said:
    If we leave out the comma, is it still an apposition?
    Back in the days of black and white televisions, I was taught that appositives had to have not only a leading comma, but a following one as well.

    Have a look at this delightfully oddball example:

    A quick example: "Heloise, phone sex operator extraordinaire, donned her fluffy bunny slippers and flannel nightgown in preparation for the evening’s raunchy conversations.”

    Appositives are always set off — on both sides — with commas. Too often I see the second comma forgotten....
    Source

    That page also gives a permissible exception, but it doesn't fit the phrase we are discussing.
     

    papillon

    Senior Member
    Russian (Ukraine)
    Too bad we didn't have this example in high school, maybe then we wouldn't be having this discussion on apposition.

    Still, it would be perfectly OK to say:
    Phone sex operator Heloise donned ...whatever phone sex operator don in preparation...
    In this case Heloise is not an appositive, just a name, right? Or am I totally off here?
     
    < Previous | Next >
    Top