in which were made the first machines having intelligence

LQZ

Senior Member
Mandarin
The 20th century will not be remembered as the era when space was conquered, or the power of the atom, harnessed , but that in which were made the first machines having intelligence.
Dear all,

The above is taken from a book teaching how to translate English into Chinese. I have no trouble with its meaning, but with the inversion of the highlighted part. Could you please tell me whether it is natural and what grammar applies to it? Thanks.


LQZ
 
  • Loob

    Senior Member
    English UK
    It's not a particularly elegant sentence, LQZ. But I'd say the verb [were made] has been put before the subject [the first machines having intelligence] because the subject is fairly long one, and with a subject-verb word order the listener/reader would be waiting a relatively long time for the verb.

    (I would have tweaked the sentence in a different way and kept subject-verb word order.)
     

    LQZ

    Senior Member
    Mandarin
    It's not a particularly elegant sentence, LQZ. But I'd say the verb [were made] has been put before the subject [the first machines having intelligence] because the subject is fairly long one, and with a subject-verb word order the listener/reader would be waiting a relatively long time for the verb.

    (I would have tweaked the sentence in a different way and kept subject-verb word order.)
    Thank you, Loob. Could you please give me your version?
     

    Copyright

    Senior Member
    American English
    I hope I'm not stepping on any Loobian toes when I suggest: The 20th century will not be remembered as the era when space was conquered or the power of the atom harnessed, but as the era when machines first acquired intelligence.
     

    Cagey

    post mod (English Only / Latin)
    English - US
    I think Loob gives a good reason for inverting the order in some sentences, but in this particular case, I would rather preserve the parallel structure. It's a matter of personal taste but I would prefer:
    The 20th century will not be remembered as the era in which space was conquered, or the power of the atom harnessed, but as the era in which the first machines having intelligence were made.
    And "the first machines having intelligence" could be improved upon. Does "intelligent machines" mean the same thing?

    Added: Ha! Copyright posted first with a more elegant version. But we seem to agree on the some of the problems. :)
     

    Loob

    Senior Member
    English UK
    Could you please give me your version?
    Well, there are several ways to do it:). Copyright has given one; here's another:

    The 20th century will not be remembered as the era when space was conquered or the power of the atom harnessed, but the one which saw the making of the first machines with intelligence.
     

    bepleased

    Banned
    Chinese
    That means ---the offspring, for the 20th century as the era of making the first machines having intelligence, keep always remember it is as the era of conquering space or harnessing the atom.


    ----the 20th century as A era or B era will not be remembered, save it be through as C era.
    further to;


    -----the 20th century be remenbered as A or B to be under it considered as C , if it is not considered as C , it will not be remembered as A or B;



    Could any one tell me if it is correct or not?
     
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    e2efour

    Senior Member
    UK English
    Inversion is a common stylistic device. Here are a couple of examples taken from the internet which sound perfectly natural.

    "A picture that they had taken of their dog showed a strange cloud around it in which could be seen a woman's face."
    (One could also write "in which there could be seen", with no inversion. This type of inversion with "there" omitted is very common.)

    "In the centre was a long table, with drawers on each side, in which were deposited not only articles appropriate to the place, but a set of carpenter's tools in one and small garden implements in another from the use of which he derived much amusement."
    (Here it would be rather difficult to avoid inversion, since the subjects of "were deposited" are much too complicated to come after "which", with "were deposited" at the end of the sentence. Note also that this is a "there omitted" type.)

    In the original example given we could write "in which there were made", but I think it sounds better without "there". The only way to learn the "rules" is to take careful note of each example of inversion you see.
     

    Cagey

    post mod (English Only / Latin)
    English - US
    Hello bepleased. :)

    This is how I understand the sentence LQZ posted:
    The 20th century will not be remembered as the era when space was conquered, [=A]
    [20th century will not be remembered as the era when] the power of the atom [was] harnessed [=B]
    But [the 20th century will be remembered as the era] in which the first machines having intelligence [were made].[=C]
    If I use letters as you have, then the sentence is structured in this way:
    The 20th century will not be remembered as A era or B era, but it will be remembered as C era.
    I can't comment on the second part of your analysis because I don't understand it completely, but I don't think it works with the way I understand the sentence.

    (NOTE: e2efour posted his explanation as I was writing this.)
     

    bepleased

    Banned
    Chinese
    ----the 20th century as A era or B era will not be remembered, save it be through as C era.
    It may be the same as the scripture given as below:

    <Wherefore, how great the importance to make these things known unto the inhabitants of the earth, that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah,......>
     

    bepleased

    Banned
    Chinese
    Hi Cagey,

    For your saying: The 20th century will not be remembered as A era or B era, but it will be remembered as C era.

    But as my thought in #8:

    That means :The 20th century will not be remembered as A era or B era, but it will be considered as C era.

    -----the 20th century be remenbered as A or B to be under it considered as C , if it is not considered as C , it will not be remembered as A or B;


    .............................................................................................................
    Hello bepleased. :)

    This is how I understand the sentence LQZ posted:
    The 20th century will not be remembered as the era when space was conquered, [=A]
    [20th century will not be remembered as the era when] the power of the atom [was] harnessed [=B]
    But [the 20th century will be remembered as the era] in which the first machines having intelligence [were made].[=C]
    If I use letters as you have, then the sentence is structured in this way:
    The 20th century will not be remembered as A era or B era, but it will be remembered as C era.
    I can't comment on the second part of your analysis because I don't understand it completely, but I don't think it works with the way I understand the sentence.

    (NOTE: e2efour posted his explanation as I was writing this.)
     
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    Copyright

    Senior Member
    American English
    Hi Cagey,

    For your saying: The 20th century will not be remembered as A era or B era, but it will be remembered as C era.

    But as my thought in #8:

    That means :The 20th century will not be remembered as A era or B era, but it will be considered as C era.
    The word that connects all three elements is "remembered" -- as Cagey has explained.

    It is not appropriate -- nor is there any logical reason -- to try to put "considered" in there in place of "remembered."
     

    Cagey

    post mod (English Only / Latin)
    English - US
    This is in response to post #11.

    Yes, the second part has a similar structure:
    that they may know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God [=A],
    save [that flesh can dwell in the mercy of God] through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah,...... [=B]
    They may not A save through B.
    The structure is similar, but there is an important difference between the meanings of but and save through. We can't discuss that without getting too far from the topic. I can tell you that save here means something like unless. You can look it up.

    Added: This is in response to post #11. Both bepleased and Copyright posted while I was writing this.
     

    bepleased

    Banned
    Chinese
    -----the 20th century will be remenbered as A or B under it considered as C , if it is not considered as C , it will not be remembered as A or B;
    = the 20th century as A or B will be remembered under it as C, if it is not as C, it will not be remembered as A or B;


     

    Cagey

    post mod (English Only / Latin)
    English - US
    -----the 20th century will be remenbered as A or B under it considered as C , if it is not considered as C , it will not be remembered as A or B;
    = the 20th century as A or B will be remembered under it as C, if it is not as C, it will not be remembered as A or B;
    No.
    This is a good description of how your sentence works with "save through". LQZ's sentence works differently because it uses "but".
     

    bepleased

    Banned
    Chinese
    Ok, you are right!

    ---"but that" means : the 20th century will be remembered as C era in the stead of it will be rememebered as A or B.

    So, there, "but" = rather or instead!

    I have got it .

    And there, "but" not presents ----not...unless / not to be ....save it be ../ except / however ;

    LQZ's sentence indicates one thing --- The speaker said that it as C will be

    remembered, in a manner that A or B must give their place for C.

    That sentence stresses very much that A or B are not the hero of the 20th but C is the only guy hero.

    Thank for your "brain storming".
     
    Last edited:

    Wertis

    Banned
    Russian
    Dear all,

    The 20th century will not be remembered as the era when space was conquered, or the power of the atom, harnessed , but that in which were made the first machines having intelligence.

    The above is taken from a book teaching how to translate English into Chinese. I have no trouble with its meaning, but with the inversion of the highlighted part. Could you please tell me whether it is natural and what grammar applies to it? Thanks.


    LQZ
    Though many natives have already posted what they think and how they would change the structure of the sentence to make it sond better and more natural, I, however, would like to say what are my ideas about the sentence. I'm not a native, but the meaning of the original sentence is clear without doubt. Inversion is a good way of making emphasis, but some use it erroneously or when it's nor really needed. Here is just the case because inversion at the end of the sentence isn't the best way to convey the idea. Look:

    The 20th century will not be remembered as the era when space was conquered, or the power of the atom WAS harnessed but that in which the first machines having intelligence were made/created.

    I suppose "was" before "harnessed" is needed because the previous "was" is quite far from the part describing the connection between the 20th century and the power of atom. Perhaps even without "was" the meaning would be clear, but in a longer sentence much more difficult to figure out. Repetition is not a nice thing to use very often, but sometimes it is required. What I have underelined then concerns the inversion of the end of our sentence. It's much smoother and more readable when the word order is natural. First, a noun and then a verb. Inversion can be used after restructuring, but I still think it's not required here. Finally, a little comment: "create" is usually better than "do" or "make". It's a universal word and helps avoid choosing betwwen "do" and "make" when you don't which word to choose. "Create" neans "to start to appear after producing something"
     
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