individuals, including my colleagues, and I (or ME or MYSELF), perceived ....

Discussion in 'English Only' started by out there, Nov 22, 2009.

  1. out there Member

    UK
    Thai
    Please kindly help me with the following sentences:

    1. Based upon my academic and professional experiences as a teacher, I found that different individuals, including my students, my colleagues, and I (or ME or MYSELF), perceived the nature of conducting scientific research in different ways. Which one is correct or more formal?

    2. This means that a knowledge claim is fabricated not only by different research participants but also by ME (or MYSELF) as a researcher.

    3. This part disscusses in detail the research findings, as previously reported in Part 3, in order to provide............... (Are commas needed before 'as' and after '3' ?

    Many thanks.
     
  2. Hi, out there,

    For 1 and 2, I prefer me, as I find the reflexive pronoun inappropriate.

    In 3, I consider the commas to be optional. I would keep them in.

    Rover
     
  3. out there Member

    UK
    Thai
    Hi Rover_k

    Many thanks for your help.
     
  4. SpyroNinja Member

    New York City
    English, New York
    In sentence one, I is proper English. Often in speaking and in informal situations native English speakers use me but it's not "right." In sentence two, some people use myself but this is ungrammatical. It's a hypercorrection, and people use it because they think it is right and believe it sounds more intelligent and more formal. You should use me there. I think the commas should definitely be used in sentence three.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
  5. out there Member

    UK
    Thai
    Many thanks, SpyroNinja. You've saved my life.
     
  6. JulianStuart

    JulianStuart Senior Member

    Sonoma County CA
    English (UK then US)
    The I in green is the subject of found and is correct.
    The subject of perceived is different individuals.
    The phrase in red uses "including" a bit like a preposition and a bit like a verb (the experts will clarify this) and either way it should take an object so the I in red should be "me". If you put the I first in the phrase it even sounds wrong : "including I, my colleagues and my students" :D
     
  7. out there Member

    UK
    Thai
    Many thanks, JulianSuart,

    Two suggested that it should be 'ME', and one said that it should be 'I'.
    All gave a good explanation.
    I'm still waiting for another one to comment on this issue then.

    Many thanks.
     
  8. JulianStuart

    JulianStuart Senior Member

    Sonoma County CA
    English (UK then US)
    My speculation is that Spyro misread the sentence and thought "my colleagues and XXX" was the subject of perceived - the sentence is somewhat awkwardly constructed, so it's not hard to misread it that way.

    The phrase "including I and you" is definitely incorrect.
     
  9. out there Member

    UK
    Thai
    Many thanks, JulianStuart, for your kind explanation.

    I agree with you that the sentence is awkwardly consructed as I just translated what I wanted to convey from Thai.

    So, I think I need to rewrite it then...hope it wouldn't make it worse!!!

    Many thanks again.
     
  10. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    Sentence 1 is quite interesting and might be said with any of the three choices of pronoun. Possible arguments:

    Me as object [the most widely accepted choice]: including, whether preposition or participle, has a compound object and me is the objective form of the pronoun. Myself might be said specifically to avoid the case issue, but it tends to sound uneducated to those who would choose I or me.

    Me as "disjunctive": Me in this sentence is a disjunctive, since it is part of a compound subject and is therefore stressed. I in such a stressed position is unnatural and inappropriate because there is no first person singular verb expressed or implied in the context.

    Subjective I: "including" here does not really mean "which include", requiring a direct object, or "inclusive of", requiring a prepositional object, but something more like "among others", a modifying phrase. Thus "including my students, my colleagues, and I" = "among others my students, my colleagues, and I" is in apposition to "different individuals", the subject of perceived, and the correct case is the subjective.

    "Modest" myself: Sometimes a native speaker uses myself as a sort of "indirect" way to mention himself or herself. This is not a reflexive or an emphatic form but special usage that indicates modesty on the part of a researcher who does not want to sound boastful.

    In sentence 2, it would be silly to argue against me as the best choice. The sentence is weak due to the use of passive voice, but by is obviously a preposition with a single object and the passive voice indicates modesty already, making myself unnecesary.

    In sentence 3, the commas are required to set off a parenthetical adverbial phrase. The phrase is parenthetical because it does not qualify or restrict any other part of the sentence.
     
  11. SpyroNinja Member

    New York City
    English, New York
    I think "I and xxx" ALWAYS sounds incorrect. "I and my friends are going to the movies" sounds very wrong to me, but "Me and my friends are going to the movies" isn't right, either.
     
  12. JulianStuart

    JulianStuart Senior Member

    Sonoma County CA
    English (UK then US)
    I think it sounds "funny/unfamiliar" because it is usually listed the other way (you don't list yourself first, perhaps modesty or just custom) - as "My friends and I are going to the movies." That sounds much better :D "She came to the movies with George and I" - that I is the hypercorrection you refer to. To check whether these work properly, it's always good to switch the two around : "She came to the movies with I and George" - with I ??? There's no time when that sounds right. Then you know it's wrong ;D However, in the case in hand, the switcharoo doesn't really help :

    "...I found that different individuals, including my students, my colleagues, and I , perceived the nature ... " In this sentence, if one omits the red words, then I is a perfectly normal subject pronoun (of a compound subject) of perceived. I think this is the sense Forero feels could be implied, even with the red words there. However, ""...I found that different individuals, including I, my colleagues, and my students, perceived the nature ... " sounds terribly incorrect unless you leave out the red.
     
  13. Forero Senior Member

    Houston, Texas, USA
    USA English
    Another version is:

    ...I found that different individuals, I, my students, and my colleagues included, perceived the nature ....

    The meaning is the same whether they include me or I am included by them. The question is really whether it is the form that dictates, or the meaning:

    ...I found that different individuals,
    (with) I, my students, and my colleagues (being) included, perceived the nature ....

    If the above version makes sense with or without the with, the including ... I version can't be wrong either. If it requires me with or without the with, the including version can still follow a different rule. But if it requires me with the with and I without it, then including requires me too.

    For the original poster's sake, let me reiterate that because of the preposition including, me is the most widely accepted choice for this sentence, especially if the composer of the sentence has time to edit and the context is formal. I in this sentence is just a curious alternative that seems natural to some educated native English speakers, especially in impromptu speech.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
  14. JulianStuart

    JulianStuart Senior Member

    Sonoma County CA
    English (UK then US)
    Fascinating possibilities :D

    I think I may understand what I think you are saying but I don't think I'll ever feel comfortable saying "... with I (.....) being included ... ", no matter what fills the (....), any more than "... including (....) I ..."

    I conclude that I am with the popular voters :D
     
  15. out there Member

    UK
    Thai
    Many many thanks for all of your explanation. This really helps me to be more careful with my writingtence.

    I think that to make it simple, I would rewrite it as:

    Based upon my academic and professional experiences as a teacher, I found that my students, my colleagues, and I had perceived the nature of conducting scientific research in different ways.
     

Share This Page

Loading...