Influence of Mongolian

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages, and Linguistics (EHL)' started by Roel~, Feb 28, 2013.

  1. Roel~ Member

    Nederlands - Nederland
    Mongolia was once the biggest empire of the world. I tried to find sites with the influence of Mongolian on other languages, mostly European ones, but it's very hard to find. They have been in Poland and Hungary and I wonder if there are Hungarian or Polish words which resemble Mongolian. I could just find a list with Russian words being influenced by Mongolian:

    While the linguistic effects may seem at first trivial, such impacts on language help us to determine and understand to what extent one empire had on another people or group of people – in terms of administration, military, trade – as well as to what geographical extentthe impact included. Indeed, the linguistic and even socio-linguistic impacts were great, as the Russians borrowed thousands of words, phrases, other significant linguistic features from the Mongol and the Turkic languages that were united under the Mongol Empire (Dmytryshyn, 123). Listed below are a few examples of some that are still in use. All came from various parts of the Horde.
    1. амбар ambar barn
    2. базар bazar bazaar
    3. деньги den’gi money
    4. лошадь loshad‘ horse
    5. сундук sunduk truck, chest
    6. таможня tamozhnya customs
    One highly important colloquial feature of the Russian language of Turkic origin is the use of the word давай which expresses the idea of ‘Let’s…’ or ‘Come on, let’s...’ (Figes, 370-1). Listed below are a few common examples still found commonly in Russian.
    1. Давай чай попьем. Davai chai popem. ‘Let’s drink some tea.’
    2. Давай выпьем! Davai vypem! ‘Come on, let’s get drunk!’
    3. Давай пойдём! Davai poidyom! ‘Come on, let’s go!’
    In addition, there are dozens of place names of Tatar/Turkic origin in southern Russia and the lands of the Volga River that stand out on maps of these areas. City names such as Penza, Alatyr, and Kazan’ and names of regions such as Chuvashia and Bashkortostan are examples.

  2. LilianaB Banned

    US New York
    Hi, Roel. Mongolian is not a Turkic language. Did you mean Mongolian, or Tatar which is a Turkic language?
  3. Roel~ Member

    Nederlands - Nederland
    The part from 'language' is cited from the website 'sras', if it says that Mongolian is a Turkic language than the website seems to be wrong. I 'm actually talking about Mongolian which is an Altaic language, but as Mongolian and the Turkic languages are family and certain words are similar I can see why this website talks about Turkic words too.
  4. LilianaB Banned

    US New York
    They are definitely wrong. I don't really know how close Mongolian and Tatar are, but Mongolian is definitely a Mongolic language, and it does not even sound anything like Tatar. Maybe someone else knows better how different these two languages are, but I think the difference might be significant. Korean and Japanese are also Altaic languages.
  5. Roel~ Member

    Nederlands - Nederland
    Some linguists say that Korean and Japanese are Altaic languages, but I believe that it isn't a broadly accepted theory.

    I don't know anything about Tatar and other Turkic languages and in how far they are familiar so I can't say anything about in how far they are right.
  6. Roy776

    Roy776 Senior Member

    Kraków, Poland
    German & AmE
    Korean and Japanese are NOT proven to be Altaic languages. Japanese is a language isolate and so is Korean.
  7. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I believe the word you have used, Roel~, Horde, which has made its way upto English is an example for itself. The name of my language, Urdu, is also derived from this word, however it (the name, not the language) mostly spoken of as a Turkic loan.
  8. LilianaB Banned

    US New York
    I know they are traditionally considered languages isolate, but my feeling is that they will be soon classified as Altaic -- some sources already classify them as Altaic. Anyhow Mongolian is not a Turkic language, so it might be better to specify whether we are looking for Mongolian or Turkic influences in Slavic languages.
  9. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It is very interesting what you say, Liliana. I believe I have also come across theories of big langauge groups. Is it possible that you provide any Internet links to any sources that might be available so that we all here can get more information?
  10. Roel~ Member

    Nederlands - Nederland
    Although the discussion about the language group of Mongolian is very interesting I actually made this topic to know if any words in languages where the Mongolians have been in medieval times, in the 13th and 14th sanctuary, are possibly influenced by the Mongolian language.

    Maybe it's better to explain the language qualification of Mongolian and other supposed Altaic languages in another topic?
  11. LilianaB Banned

    US New York
    Did they speak Mongolian at the time they invaded Europe in the 13th, or Bolgar, another Turkic language form which Khazan Tatar originates, or yet another Turkic language?
  12. Roel~ Member

    Nederlands - Nederland
    This is what Wikipedia says

    Middle Mongol or Middle Mongolian was a Mongolic koiné language language spoken in the Mongol Empire. Originating from Genghis Khan's home region of northeastern Mongolia, it diversified into several Mongolic languages after the collapse of the empire.

    This is during the empire of Genghis Khan, so it's around the 13th centuary, the question remains though if they used this language in Europe too and if it influenced European languages.

    I can't actually find anything about what they spoke when they came here.
  13. LilianaB Banned

    US New York
    Apparently the aristocracy spoke Mongolian,and the rest of the people spoke a Turkic language.This is at least what some sources say. I have the feeling that the remainders of the Golden Horde culture in Europe -- linguistically, are more of Turkic origin.
  14. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Are you sure bazaar is of Mongolian origin rather than Persian?

    The theory about an Altaic language family is very much disputed. There is no conclusive evidence at the moment about a "genetic link" between the two language groups.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  15. Treaty Senior Member

    The Mongol empire was a confederation of both so-called Altaic people (Turkic and Mongolian) and others, although the chief tribes were Mongolians. Besides, they easily adopted language, religion and culture of occupied nation as soon as they settled. I'm not sure of Horde in Russia, but in China and Iran they soon embraced both the religion and culture (of course gave a few words to their hosts). From your own examples, three of them are Persian (bazar, sanduq and ambar). Is there any clear time when they entered Russian (like after Mongolian invasion)?
  16. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Russian has borrowed lots of words from a variety of Turkic languages, including words which Turkic has from Persian (bāzār etc.) or Arabic (ṣundūq etc.). These were borrowed at different times and from different dialects. You can look them up in Vasmer’s etymological dictionary. There is no ground for attributing them all to the Mongol empire.
  17. Roel~ Member

    Nederlands - Nederland
    But I thought I read this at Wikipedia, why would Wikipedia claim that if it's disputed?
  18. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Wikipedia is a random collection of entries by anonymous authors, many of them ignorant cranks.
  19. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
  20. illidan1371 New Member

    it`s my first post here. i only registered here to answer some of your questions.
    as a person who knows both Persian and Azeri(and thus Turkish) as mother tongue i must say that the Mongolian language had very little influence on European languages because:
    1)The majority of the people within the horde were Turkic and Mongolians only made up the elite aristocracy.
    2)Kipchak language , a form of Turkic spoken by Cumans was used as the lingua franca between the tribes specially in Europe which was a part of the Altin Arda or the golden horde.
    also bazaar is a Persian word. But bashmak , Anbar are both Turkic and not mongolian and we still use them in Azeri language.
    also about the relation between Mongolian and Turkic languages. I must say the the old words and religious words and the numbers used as millitary units are the same. so we can talk about old things(like tribal life herds millitary units and tengri religion based words we can understand each other.) so those who say that these two languages have nothing to do with each other are wrong!
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  21. Awwal12

    Awwal12 Senior Member

    Moscow, the RF
    In Europe, the Mongol language was actually spoken for a very brief period of time. Batu, the first khan of the Golden Horde, got only a fraction of Mongol warriors that his father Juchi had (and even those were just 4 thousand Mongols). In the same time, the local nomadic population numbered in several millions. Quite obviously, those Mongols were linguistically assimilated very, very quickly, since the absolute majority of Batu's warriors were from Turkic-speaking Kypchak tribes. When Batu died and his son Sartaq was poisoned, the situation became even more complicated, since khan Berke was a Muslim, - and the most of local Muslims were Turkic-speaking again. There was no much place for the Mongol language since then.

    Russian has a considerable set of Turkic loanwords loaned in different periods from different sources, but only several words loaned from Mongolic languages, and none of those is loaned during the Mongol Horde period. That, of course, doesn't include several Turkic words of supposedly Mongol origin, but those words existed in Turkic languages long before the Mongol horde anyway. As for the mentioned Mongolic loanwords, they come from dialects of those Russian regions that bordered Kalmyk (West Oirat) nomads in XVII-XVIII centuries and later on. That is either cultural vocabulary (like доха 'dokha' - some kind of a fur coat) or words describing realities of the local nature (like сапсан 'sapsan' - peregrine falcon).
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014

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