inuiriam non tulit quam ferre debuit

Discussion in 'Lingua Latina (Latin)' started by William Stein, Sep 22, 2013.

  1. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    Another quote from my favorite windbag, Cicero:

    "Themistocles, cum Graeciam servitude Persica liberavisset et propter invidiam in exsilium expulsus esset, ingratae patriae iniuriam non tulit quam ferre debuit"

    Themistocles, having freed Greece from slavery under the Persians and then being exiled abroad out of envy, could not bear his ungrateful fatherland's insult 1) that he had to suffer? or 2) that he should have tolerated?

    It's funny because version 1 is commiserating with T. whereas version 2 is criticizing him for not being subservient enough. Anyway, which version is right?
  2. relativamente Senior Member

    catalan and spanish
    The verb fero, infinitive ferre, past tuli, was a frequently used verb and had several different meanings. i thing in this passage is used with two different meanings.One must make some interpretation, and maybe a longer text is needed.Could say for example that he did not made known the insult that he had to bear.
  3. Agró

    Agró Senior Member

    Alta Navarra
    Themistocles, though he had freed Greece from Persian slavery and because of jealousy had been driven into exile, did not bear the injustice of his ungrateful fatherland that he should have borne.

  4. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English

    Hi Agro,
    I found that translation, too, but I'm not convinced. It just seems too much to demand that a great hero, after saving his country, should be happy about his ungrateful fatherland's injustice by banishing him! The Greeks were certainly too individualistic to think that way (look at Achilles, for example). I don't think even a Roman of the Republic era would require that much submission to the State, although I could be wrong because Rome is sort of the mother of all totalitarian regimes.
    Anyway, (I hope) it really means "that he had to suffer".
    Any other opinions?
  5. Flaminius

    Flaminius coclea mod

    capita Iaponiae
    日本語 / japāniski / יפנית
    Marcus Tullius reproaches Themistocles because he fled to Persia, the archenemy of the Greeks. For a man of militaristic totalitarianism who elsewhere says;
    cedat (...) forum castris, otium militiae, stilus gladio, umbra soli; sit denique in civitate ea prima res propter quam ipsa est civitas omnium princeps (Cic. Mur. 30); or,​

    the forum must yield to the camp; peace must yield to war, the pen to the sword, and the shade to the sun. That in fact must be the first thing in the city, by means of which the city itself is the first of all cities (English translation by Yonge, London and Bohn);​

    deserting one's country for whatever reason should be really a bad sin.

    The quote in the text was originally taken from his de amicitia (Cic. Amic. 42). An English translation is also available.
  6. William Stein Senior Member

    San Jose, Costa Rica
    American English
    Thanks Flaminius, the context makes it clear. I was just thinking on my way back from breakfast that established authors of all the ages have tended to be propagandists of bootlicking servility, so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. Anyway, according to Donald Keegan's lecture series on Ancient Greece in youtube, exile was no big deal. Athenians would be exiled all the time and then come back and be treated as though nothing had happened.

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